This is all dc3's fault I'm starting this thread!

Lots of reasons are given for health care being so expensive and at times simply unavailable to many. Is it a 'right' or a priviledge for citizens to have health care, paid for by their taxes and a nominal 'same cost for everyone' health plan?

Well since it's my fault that you started this thread then I feel obligated to help get it started.

A health system paid for through taxes and a nominal cost sounds like social medicine. This has it's up sides and it's down sides. It addresses all of the people who need help, but there may be limited access to specialist and equipment like MRIs, I will look for supporting documentation for the doubting Thomas out there, but it will have to wait till later, the lawn needs my attention before it gets too hot and completes the job of scrambling my brains.

My stance:
"The persuit of LIFE Liberty and the Persuit of happiness."

EDIT: I realize I didnt really specify what I meant. I think we are all entitled to healthcare, as long as we are doing our duty to our nation/community the nantion should take care of our health.

People who dont work because they dont want to dont deserve health care or food stamps for that matter and its not fair to make people pay to house people like that. Laziness should not be rewarded as it is in the USA.

We have illegals come in our country and are able to get better health care than us because they cannot turn anyone away. Maybe we should all become mexican citizens and come back to the USA illegally then we can get the same health care as the ones who dont pay taxes.

The Health care system needs to be redone so it works for the people not the lazy and illegal. The illegals costs us billions every year and we just dont do anything about it.

CGM...the problem is that we are going to have to deal with these indigents on one level or another. As I mentioned in another thread, the people who can't afford to go to see a doctor will wait until they are in serious condition which will cost much more than it would have in most cases had they gone in when it could have been treated on a outpatient basis. It doesn't matter which way you look at it, we the tax payers are going to foot the bill, so why not make health care available to all and stop these expensive stays in the hospital that could have been prevented.

Not all of us are indigent or lazy. We simply cannot afford health insurance. We don't get any help with employer provided plans, we have pre-existing conditions (and age) that push private health insurance premiums out of reach. We are working, but our income is not considered poverty level to qualify for any state assisted health plans. We are SOL.

I honestly can't even begin to imagine what it must be like to not have full medical coverage, mommabear, especially when working and doing the very best possible. It must be down right scary living day to day with possible massive medical costs that could loom at any time!

In a different thread, we wandered onto this topic as well, and I hope no one minds my paraphrasing myself from earlier ...

Earlier, dc3 mentioned people with insufficient coverage or people without any at all often put off seeing the doctor until they absolutely must - resulting in the 'train wreck syndrome'. Truly horrible - yes, for the financial costs involved for something that may have been treated early and/or prevented - but far worse surely for the patients themselves.

I honestly and firmly believe that all citizens are entititled to proper health care at a reasonable price, regardless of their health at the time they are receiving coverage.

Wonder how priorities wandered 'so far off'. First, take care of the citizens who pay the taxes and make the countries what they are - and worry about giving away the millions upon millions and 'forgiving' outstanding massive loans far later - after 'our own houses' are put in order.

- - -
I wonder if it wouldn't make far better sense medically as well as financially to have a 'triage' center at each emergency room that is a tad different than most are now. Those that are not in need of true emergency care are simply not treated in the expensive hospital environment at all. Rather, they could be sent to a 'walk in clinic' environment for treatment. Yes, it would still cost money to treat everyone, but surely not a fraction of what it costs the way our systems are run now.

Many young adults (well I'm on the upper end of this range now) like myself dont have insurance because our employers look at the larger workforce which is higher paid and sets the policy by what the average employee can almost afford. Meanwhile the younger employees are forced to either swallow the price tag, get their own insurance (usually at a lower rate but not much lower), or do without (which is what I do).

The Insurance industry in general is a joke. I see no reason for it to cost a 23 year old male with no health issues, no tobacco use, who hasnt been to the Doctor's office (outside of drug tests and physicals) in the last 5 years $125USD a month with a $1000 deductible and thas only for Health care no Eye or dental included.

Most public hospitals do that already...not sure about for-profit hospitals though. The "clinic" part is usually right next to or very nearby the emergency room. Several years ago I went to the clinic/emergency for a bladder infection, after trying the at-home cranberry juice remedy for a couple of days. Women know about those.

It cost almost $200, for the labs (pee in a cup), and a prescription for the antibiotic and those wonderful little brown pills that stop the spasms that make your eyes roll into the top of your head. A few years later I got another one and went back. The admitting nurse at the desk took pity on me when I said we had no insurance. She said are you sure it's a bladder infection? I said yes. So what she did was talk to a doctor, he wrote the script and I got my antibiotic and wonderful little brown pills, for about $35. I left with the promise that if I didn't get better, I would come back, because some infections are more serious than others. I have no idea what the full cost would have been that time, but I'm sure it would have been higher than the other time.

Truthfully, except for saving the money for "emergency" doctors that would see you, and the "emergency" cubicles you still wait in, the cost for medical care is still prohibitive for a lot of people. I mean, I had no choice by that time but to go for help, but if a simple bladder infection costs over $200 in a clinic, forget about any kind of routine yearly checkup or something like that at a regular doctor's office.

My husband has to go to a cardiologist every year to get his blood pressure prescriptions renewed. This doctor was referred to us by an out of state hospital when he had problems with his other BP medications on a vacation, ended up in the hospital, and was told to see a cardiologist when we got back home. Turned out the old BP medications didn't work in high altitude...so he was okay after all...after an $8000 bill for that.

Anyway, of course on his first visit for the complete checkup, that was an arm and a leg. Although I don't remember exactly how much now. But because the doctor knows we don't have insurance, unless he notices something or the hubby complains of something, he skips the yearly cardiogram so we can save the money. It's basically, hi, how ya feeling? "Pretty good." while the doctor takes his BP. And then the hubby walks out with his prescriptions and that office call is "only" $90.

I just finished paying off a hospital bill from 2004. Another one will be paid off this month. That one only took about 8 months to pay off. Both for the husband.

I haven't seen the inside of a doctor's office for anything in 25+ years. I guess I've been lucky. I managed to get through menopause without any hormones. Which might be a good thing now that we're hearing about all the cancer associated with hormones. I did do something to my right knee a few years back. Hyper-extended it or something when stepping off a ladder and missing that last rung. I just put myself in a knee brace from the drugstore for about 8 months, and worked with it by exercising and stretching it, until I could walk normal again.

We're still too young for Medicare. With the hubby's health history and our ages now (63 and 62) private insurance would run us upwards of $800 to a $1000 a month, (maybe more now) if we can even get it. And the deductibles would be astronomical, I'm sure.

It's kind of ironic in a way, because it wouldn't pay us to get insurance unless we did end up with some horrible disease or injury that would tally up hundreds of thousands of dollars in bills. For us, hospital and doctor bills when we are forced to do it, are like having a car payment for a second car that never gets paid off.

Sorry, I tend to rattle on when this subject comes up.

Wow, I'm stunned. Honestly.

First, that someone young and healthy like yourself, BlackSpyder, would have to pay that much for basic (no extended health care) coverage - and the deductable!!!

And mommabear - how does the average person possible pay those kind of fees incurred?!! I think I'd be weeping into my beer (drat that I don't drink beer, but that's beside the point!) at the very thought of it.

And wow, the medical tests are sure expensive!!! A friend visiting from England forgot to take out traveller's insurance (ugh!!) and we dragged him off to our family doctor when he became ill. No insurance so the fee was $55.00 ... cost $35.00 for the blood test to be done at a local lab and then just needed antibiotics thankfully.

I think I'm just truly puzzled. I read about why health care is so expensive in the States and please do correct me if I've misunderstood something ...

Everyone who applies to health insurance privately (not through a company group plan) pays a rate per month set down by the insurance companies themself? Example - high premiums for someone healthy like you, BlackSpyder, and beyond the capability of the average person to pay if they are ill at time of applying or elderly?

And if people can afford the premiums, they can still be turned down for coverage?

And most insurance plans/hospitals are run/owned by private companies?

I'm not trying to be obtuse here but simply struggling to understand ... Why would a private company take this on if they didn't expect to make a huge profit? (And I would think that's after they pay huge, huge wages to the 'top people').

So ... if money is there to be made, wouldn't it make better sense to have the government run/own things so 'normal wages' could be paid to the 'top people' and the citizens receive better/more available health care - and the government still make a profit?

I know I could be wrong but when I hear of people blaming 'overweight' people as the 'biggest problem' or any of the other reasons I've heard about what is wrong with the health system, I'm ever so inclined to agree with dc3 when she says, " It doesn't matter which way you look at it, we the tax payers are going to foot the bill, so why not make health care available to all and stop these expensive stays in the hospital that could have been prevented" - and perhaps the core of the problem lies within the system itself rather than the people?

(If it's any consulation, private companies are doing their darnest to get a foot hold in our health care system here in Canada too - eep!).

I am not talking about the ones who cant afford it thats another story. I am talking about the people who sit on their porches all day and do NO work get free food from food stamps and free housing. Then us who work have to pay for them and the laziness.

What I am saying is we need a new policy. We know a guy or my dad does that was unable to read. He got like 400 a month maybe more for his dissability. Well he learned to read even with his problem. He went to take a test(to see if he could read) and failed it on purpose so he could keep those 400 dollar checks coming in each month.

Yes health care needs to be affordable to everyone.

These doctors who charge a arm and a leg to fix a scratch need to be sued fired or whatever it takes to get the cost down down down.

My dad had to pay 125? 200? for a hepatitis shot. I got mine free for being on medicaid plan. Why should stuff like this cost so much? Why should a dentist visit cost 200 bucks and taking wisdom teeth out 1000 or more? Why 125 a month for health care? Why not 20 bucks?

A lot of this can go back to people being unhealthy just like WE pay for the bad drivers. Every time someone has a accident we pay for it. Every time someone sue's someone over nothing WE pay for it. Money doesnt come out of thin air.

Its a big pot so to speak. We all put in together to help each other. One person gets sick the pot can handle it with little being put in. You get a lot of people taking from the pot the cost to keep the pot full costs more per person.

More healthy americans and cheaper medical costs are what we need! Why does a bottle of vitamins cost 120 bucks? My sister takes some and thats how much they cost. For like 60 pills too!

I get tired of arguing and just talking on this stuff. I want to know what can we do to fix it, what are you going to do? We must work together to solve these type problems not just wine and complain and do nothing about it

Mommabear, What you just described is typical of the working middle class of America, and this is exacerbated by the cost of drugs that the insurance won't cover.

What really bothers me is as wealthy as we are here in America and with some of the leading technology in the world the World Health Organization ranks us as 37th in the world for health care. Just for the record France and Italy are the number one and two on the list.

MaraM, Insurance is a scam here in America, I have often wondered if the lawyers and insurance companies are in cahoots with each other. Insurance companies have the right to deny a policy because of a preexisting condition. But that's just the tip of the iceberg, insurance companies are dictating what medical procedures, exams, and medications the doctors can use.

Think of what the future holds for us if insurance companies continue in the same manner, with the mysteries of the human genome understood and modern medicine being able to tell who will be genetically predisposed to certain diseases all it will take will be a simple blood test to determine what each persons future genetic health risk will be. Insurance companies can now demand that you have a medical exam before writing a policy, image how much this will enhance their profits being able to decline a patient for a known preexisting congenital problem that hasn't even manifested itself.

One of my favorite responses to the question of "is that right" is no, but it's true.

Its amazing isnt it. I drop $200USD in tests a year for work (annual DOT physical and optional Drug test from the companies doctor, the drug test reduces my chances of being pulled for a random by 50%, Im in the system twice since I have a CDL and am a mechanic where everyone else is in there once, got pulled 3 times in 3 months before, havent got pulled since). I dont get reimbursed by the company since i get to take it off my taxes at the end of the year. Anyway back to my point..... I get a clean bill of health every year and the only known medical issues I have a some "minor" joint deterioration from 4 years of wrestling in HS (what knocks the price up).

IMHO. If you want to fix the system we need to look at how Canada (because I really love your system) and European countries with Government run(Medicare "ish") or controlled (prices and practices kept in check) systems.

To know that the incredible United States is ranked that low - egad, the people in power should be hanging their heads in shame! (Please don't be angry with that comment - it's just it's stunningly horrible to know that in a country like the USA this could actually happen!).

If the private companies can not only raise premiums because of something like "minor" joint deterioration", what on earth would be the monthly premiums for a healthy family of four? Or a family of 3 healthy and one with cancer, I wonder?

I've hesitated asking this but ...

With the present system, the insurance companies can dictate what, if any, type of tests, procedures and/or treatments a person who is covered will receive? A doctor cannot write orders for scads of preventive/screening tests and have the patient automatically have all the tests done?

What happens if someone has coverage and develops a horrible disease - such as cancer? Surely the insurance company can't deny them each and every treatment possible, regardless of cost? Egad, surely not.

What happens if a person has no coverage - and is a citizen - they get billed and must pay themselves for everything - how on earth can anyone actually afford to pay for medical care received - and still survive day to day and month to month financially?

And what happens if a person has no coverage - and is not a citizen - their medical care is free? (As per taxes pay).

So ... if one is not a citizen - you won't end up in debt by being sick. But if one is a citizen, you will end up in massive debt if you or someone in your family becomes very ill. Hmmm.

Yes, it's a stunningly dreadful system - whatever happened to life/health being a 'right'?! Geesh! But it would be tacky indeed to be giving away millions (billions?) each year to other countries and deny even illegal immigrants medical coverage and have them start dying on the street. Egad. (And surely some illegal aliens are working and are paying taxes, too?)

1)Insurance Companies cannot say you cannot have a certain procedure or drug but they can say that they're not going to pay for it.

2)They can and in some cases will drop you though.

3)Payment plans, leans on your house, you name it you will pay for it (although at a slightly lesser cost then an insurance company will, they make up the difference in the interest)

4) i dont know

Ok...do you want your answers in alphabetical order, numerical order, or in the order of importance?

I will be the first to admit that it is embarrassing to realize that we have one of the worst health care systems in the world, there is no other excuse except for political ineptitude and greed. We treat illegal aliens better than our own indigent, we don't even charge the illegal aliens.


Even with insurance the level of treatment for a major disease can vary from one insurance company to another. Most insurance companies will not authorize the use of experimental treatments. One of the issues that I can't abide with is that bureaucrats of the insurance companies are now dictating what procedures and medication will be allowed.

Indigents are defined as earning less than $389.00 per month, and there are state and county programs which will provide medical care for them.

Next up the ladder are those who qualify for Medicaid, a single person can't earn more that $700.00 per month. Above that level of income I fear that you are considered to be earning enough to be able to afford health insurance. I would love to see the responsible party for these definitions be forced to live on that kind of income and be able to afford insurance.

If you go to a hospital's ER that are required to treat you, if you can't pay don't worry, the can sue you and have you wages attached.

This topic is making me ill just thinking about it...wait a minute, does my insurance cover this?

I think the others have probably answered these too, so pardon me if something is basically repeated.

We all got off relating our insurance horror stories and I think the original intent of MaraM's thread got lost.

First off, yes, health care should be a "right" for everyone and the cost shared by everyone, based on their ability to pay something.

Gone are the days of $10 visits at home by your personal doctor. Because of all the advances in medicine, followed by the increased cost to pay for those technologies, health care for all is the only humane way to do it. It's the right thing to do if we have any sense of responsibility for the least among us.

Now to the problem of "socialized medicine". Some countries do have socialized medicine, run by the government, and it works for them for the most part. The US is a free capitalist society and in most areas it should remain that way. But not for health care anymore, because of the reasons I said above.

What we can do though is come up with something like this:

Physicians for a National Health Program is a nonprofit organization of 14,000 physicians,
medical students and health professionals who support single-payer national health insurance.

http://www.pnhp.org/

Other countries have adopted a system of national health care insurance. And there are parts of socialized medicine that DO work.

We need to look at all the other alternatives to for-profit health care, take the best parts from them all of them, discard what won't work here, and combine it into a system that we can be proud of.

Let's not forget what our litigious society has added, much higher malpractice insurance.

Yes, that is true, but under a new system I think there would be ways to address damages for negligence along the line of no fault insurance for the physicians and the hospitals. It's hard to put a price on suffering, but there would have to be a cap. As a Liberal, even I understand that. But it will also bring down the cost of malpractice insurance because unknowable $ amounts of possible future awards, would not have to be factored in. There would be no more guessing to it.

QUOTE
dc3:

...I have often wondered if the lawyers and insurance companies are in cahoots with each other.

quote mammabear

Yes. Plus the lobbyists for the pharmaceutical and hospital industries, in cahoots with the politicians.

Basically we (the US) need to switch over to a model like Canada has, or like a euro-socialst model.
Canada's model is far more efficient than ours, it's major problem is that there isn't enough money going into it. Here that wouldn't be a problem as we spend roughly 4 times as much per capita than any other industrialized nation on health care, yet we have more uninsured citizens than anyone else. Put all of that capital into a public system and our system could really be something. The for-profit system ultimately just doesn't work for the population on the whole. Our health care figures are disgraceful. I believe the last time a survey was taken the US had the second-highest infant mortality rate in the world. The only nation higher was some horribly poor African nation. It's inexcusable. And it can't stay the way it is. As it is now, health care costs are rising annually faster than inflation. In another decade or so, the entire middle class won't be able to afford insurance. Not to mention the stress that the baby boomers are going to put on the medicare and medicaid systems starting next year.

well put arcman I agree fully. Another thing we also need to look at is th fact that Baby boomers (hate to pidgin-hole a group but its true) will draw almost 2 times the amount of Social Security that they put in thanks to inflation. This puts additional stress on our generation.

Here in Canada, suing a physician is hard beyond belief. Not necessarily a 'good' thing but if one can belief a 1/4 of the media's reporting over the medical law suits that happen in the States and the often huge settlements, it does seem a tad staggering.

I wonder if there is a feasible solution for what is happening to the people in the United States with this 'interesting' medical care system that now exists. Has it always been like this? Or simply started after health care was privatized?

Now I'm really curious about how medical care/costs are handled in other Countries!

Here in British Columbia, Canada, our medical system is fairly simple. For instance, a single person working without medical coverage through his or her employer, pays approximately $35.00 a month for medical coverage. (The premiums are a big higher for a family). This coverage is for everything, doctor's visits, therapy, xrays and all other tests including 'physicals', hospital stays, surgery, etc. The only exceptions under this basic plan 'for all' is 'physicals' required by employers and glasses, hearing aids or dental work. It does not matter if one is young, old, healthy or sick - premiums are all the same.

This same person, if working for a company that has a group medical plan, will retain the above coverage through his employer, plus have 'extended health care'. Depending on the employer and which coverage they've selected, costs for prescriptions, dental work, hearing aids, therapy (physical/mental), glasses can range from full coverage to the 'worse', with the plan paying about half the costs.

- - -

Don't know what it's like in the States or elsewhere, but here we 'Baby Boomers' (I like to think I'm at the tail-end of them ) are already adding to the stress and strain financially. When the plan here was enacted, seniors rarely lived as long as they do now. And while many live longer, the poor old bodies still break down at a frightening rate - each time requiring more and more medical care. A huge duh to the government for not recognizing this and as people both live longer and our population increasing so rapidly from new citizens, they'd better start tossing more of the tax payers money into our system too, or we may loose something as wonderful as our own medical system - eep!

The best kind of healthcare in the US in my opinion is the VA (Veterans Administration) hospitals who as far as I have seen have bent over backwards to heal former soldiers long after they have retired or quit. Many Baby Boomers are accepted at the VA due to their service in the Vietnam "War" and in Korea. It's got me thinking about joining the Army just for that. (Cant go Marines my little brothers one, Semper Fi)

I can remember back in '64 when we did have health insurance, and I think we bought it. Because, as newlyweds, eventually we'd be having a family. It had to cost only a few bucks a month. His salary was only about $50 a week. lol!

Mostly you got insurance back then for "major medical"...meaning you had to go to the hospital for something, like having a baby. If employers were including health plans as benefits, the practice was in its infancy then and only the biggest companies had it.

Our health care has always been privatized. But this is probably the moment in time when it started going into the crapper in this country.

HMO=Health Maintenance Organization

BlackSpyder, I hate to be the one to disillusion you, but the VA has been a sore spot since the 1970s and has recently taken a nose dive. My father is a retired physician and at one time was on the examining board of the AMA, and his opinion was derisive at best regarding the VA hospitals and their staff. He summed up the caliber of the physician working there as being unable to find work elsewhere. This was my earliest impression of the VA hospitals, now thanks to the Bush administration it appears that it is becoming an organization to avoid if at all possible. I ran across this article which pretty much says it all.

The bush administration should be ashamed, Bush starts a needless war in Iraq and then sends our troops over there with inferior body armor and vehicles with no armor adding to the already high level of danger, and then pushes to privatize the VA further reducing its' level of care. The recent report of the horrendous conditions at the Walter Reed hospital is only the tip of the iceberg, Walter Reed was suppose to be the flagship of the VA hospitals.

Just want to give my opinion as I havn't read any posts here.

In a perfect world, everyone would get equal and the best possible health care. But until this perfect world, I believe you get what you pay for. Want that special surgery? You have to be able to pay for it. Now I wouldn't mind that perfect world, but until then, I believe the rich deserve and should get the best. Otherwise, what's the point in earning all that wealth? And my family is middle class, maybe even a tiny on the poor side by some's standards.

So yeah, it's a privelage if you want good healthcare.

By the way, many U.S.A. prisoners get better healthcare than the average citizen .

This issue isn't about the differences between good and bad health care and who can afford the best.

The issue is about everyone having access to any kind of health care at all that can keep you healthier, improve your quality of life, and in a lot of cases, save your life.

Since I buy my own health insurance and my family stays healthy....should I have to pay for someone else's health insurance? I'm already paying for 3. Should my money be taken to pay for someone I don't know?

London's Observer (3/3/02) carried a story saying that an "unpublished report shows some patients are now having to wait more than eight months for treatment, during which time many of their cancers become incurable." Another story said, "According to a World Health Organisation report to be published later this year, around 10,000 British people die unnecessarily from cancer each year -- three times as many as are killed on our roads."
The Observer (12/16/01) also reported, "A recent academic study showed National Health Service delays in bowel cancer treatment were so great that, in one in five cases, cancer which was curable at the time of diagnosis had become incurable by the time of treatment."

The Vancouver, British Columbia-based Fraser Institute has a yearly publication titled, "Waiting Your Turn." Its 2006 edition gives waiting times, by treatments, from a person's referral by a general practitioner to treatment by a specialist. The shortest waiting time was for oncology (4.9 weeks). The longest waiting time was for orthopedic surgery (40.3 weeks), followed by plastic surgery (35.4 weeks) and neurosurgery (31.7 weeks).

"Under federal law, private clinics are not legally allowed to provide services covered by the Canada Health Act"

The following was a challenge proposed by Walter Williams ~~ "I challenge anyone to show me people dying on the streets because they don't have health insurance."

Mommabear wrote...

"This issue isn't about the differences between good and bad health care and who can afford the best.

The issue is about everyone having access to any kind of health care at all that can keep you healthier, improve your quality of life, and in a lot of cases, save your life."

Well said, I couldn't have said it better.


jwinathome, you have indicated a number of times that you would rather manage your money rather than have you taxes spent in a manner that doesn't suit you, I can understand that. But our tax dollars are being spent without any real control on our part, and the way it is being spent is leaving a large number of people without health care. Even with the problems that you cited at least Canada has health care available to all. I personally wouldn't base a model on their health care program, there are better systems, have you looked a the French and Italian health plans? They have the number one and two health care programs in the world.

I have not, no.

Do you think Walter Williams is naive in his challenge to show someone dying on our streets because of a lack of health care.

I don't know about actually dying in the streets. I'm sure it would be safe to assume that has happened. Patients without insurance are dropped off in front of shelters or any street corner these days, especially in large cities. They're in their hospital gowns with catheter bags and colostomy bags in tow. Their personal possessions they had with them are in a grocery bag. Many times they are mentally challenged, walking down the street in a daze, or just out of it because of their illness or medications.There have been some news video documentations of that occurring.

But most of them probably just die in their homes.

Thanks mommabear...that is intriguing, and I will definitely look into that report.

I feel horrible for the Rotzler situation, however, it does not make sense to me why she and her husband waited so long to just get an exam from a free clinic.

In this particular case the article said they were saving money for the children...in case they'd need medical attention for something.

You have to understand what it's like not to have health insurance. Most of us can come up with $200-$300 for an initial exam and tests....maybe even another $1000 or so for an MRI if it's recommended.

It's not that first trip to the doctor, even if it's a free clinic, that's the problem. It's the constant nagging thought inside your brain. "What if the doctor finds something wrong? What do I do then?"

So you don't go at that first sign that something is wrong. You don't even go after the second, third, or even the forth time. You just hope and pray it will "go away".

I just saw a snippet of Bush's speech this afternoon in Ohio, I think. And he made me so mad I wanted to reach through the screen and shake him. He's telling the crowd, "Everyone (implying even those without insurance) can get medical care here. Just go to an emergency room!"

Maybe if we all lined up in front of an emergency room for our children's vaccinations, the annual flu shot, the annual pap test, the annual mammogram, the annual colorectal cancer screen, the cholesterol tests, diabetes tests, etc, etc, that we're all told every single day that we should be having.... maybe then he might finally get a clue.

Since I buy my own health insurance and my family stays healthy....should I have to pay for someone else's health insurance? I'm already paying for 3. Should my money be taken to pay for someone I don't know?


Perhaps yes. For the same reason we all pay taxes for roads (whether we drive or not), taxes on transit in many areas (whether we ride the bus or not, free libraries even if we've never stepped foot into one and our tax money spent on schools even if we have no children.

When I say these next words please please don't take offense as they are not intended as an insult to anyone but the political leaders ...

If one erased all reference to the States in all these posts, it would be understandable if some thought they were reading about a 'Third World Country' not the wonderful United States.

It's a cold day in Hell... I'm in agreement with Micheal Moore on healthcare. I've been watching his media tour for his new movie "Sicko" and I must say that I agree with him on many of his points and am tempted to go see the movie. BTW I hated "Bowling for Columbine" and his other movie.

I think the more a person makes the more they get to pay in taxes, and I think those taxes should go towards things like universal health care since the entire point of taxation in the first place is so that the government can provide benefits to its society as a whole. Having a healthy citizenry is one of the fundamental cornerstones of a productive society, after all. And it isn't as if you'd be paying for your premiums as well as the cost of someone else's. One of the things about health care programs is that the more participants you have the lower the premiums are overall. If everyone's taxable income goes into a national system then you'd pay far less money for a much much more efficient system.

Mommabear I don't know how you manage to keep your right mind without having health insurance coverage. My husband will be retiring in December and the thought of having to find health insurance is terrifying. Yes, he will get Social Security (I use the term Security loosely, although it was never meant to be a retirement plan) and he will get medicare, big deal!! For those who don't realize it, you pay a monthly premium for your medicare out of what you receive from Social Security. On top of this medicare doesn't cover all that much when it comes to health care expenses and the Part D for prescription coverage is almost a joke if you require medication that is deemed too expensive, pay full price for it. Baby boomers putting a strain on the Social Security system and Medicare!! My husband has paid into the system much more than he will ever collect from the pitence he will receive after working for almost 50yrs., alot of which was working 7 days a week for months at a time. When a cost of living raise is given to Social Security recipients it doesn't go far. You may get a $6.00 a month raise but the premium on your medicare goes up $5.00 and we're not real sure how we will spend our windfall extra $1.00 a month!! As for sitting around and not working to help pay for my healthcare cost, well I'd much rather be working and someone else can live the way I have to on a daily basis. Yep, I'm on Social Security Disability and Medicare. After working for 26 yrs. I got sick and couldn't work any longer and my only recourse was to go on disability. This money comes from what I paid into Soc.Sec. when I was working and believe me it's not all that much, plus I too pay a premium for medicare. When my husband retires I'm not even sure that I will be able to afford to go to the doctors that I need let alone afford my medication some of which is very expensive but cost or not I will (or should) have to be on it the rest of my life. To find an affordable Health Insurance Policy to help cover what Medicare doesn't pay is a real streach of the imagination, the key word being affordable.
In a country that is supposedly one of the leading nations in the world and one of the richest there is no good excuse for anyone to have to suffer illness,pain or the possibility of death because of lack of health insurance and yet many face this problem day after day. I've paid taxes for many years to help pay for many government programs just like every other citizen has and no it wasn't always put to the best possible use. I would much rather my tax money went to help those who can't afford decent health care than to pay out loans to other countries that have their right hands out for money while holding the club to bash open our heads in the left! I don't have all the answers as to how the system can be fixed, but fixed it must be. It seems we can take care of the rest of the world but can not take care of our own poor or less fortunate people and so until the Federal Government is made to wake up it will continue on and the middle classes,elderly and poor will continue to suffer due to the lack of health care.

I've purposely stayed away from mentioning "Sicko" because threads like that (in other forums) immediately turn into a debate about MM and his style of getting his point across, and the message itself gets lost if a flurry of liberal and conservative talking points. And yes, some even blame Clinton for this too. LOL!

Everyone MUST see this movie, especially those who DO have insurance. I don't want to be a spoiler, but Sicko is not about the almost 50 million Americans who don't have health care, like myself and my husband.

It's about the rest of you who do have insurance and believe you are going to be okay. You need to see this movie.

The Part D prescription coverage that Iodine talks about was also "privatized" by Bush and the Pharma Industry. Did you know that Medicare is forbidden to even solicit competitive bids for the drugs under the Bush plan? Did you know that the drug program you picked last May can, at any time, drop a drug you need; and you are stuck paying full price until if and when you can find another program that does carry the drug.

Then there's the "doughnut hole" in the new drug program. If you hit that ceiling half way through the year, you are then required to pay full price up to so much money, before it kicks back in again.

This is an old article from 2005 but gives general information.





We had to take our SS early because of the type of work my husband does. He's a painter who's had 2 shoulder operations in the last 3 years and he's left with a bad arm. It's just too hard on him. So our benefits are reduced for taking it early and we both work part time to supplement it. He only paints 2 days a week now until he if and when he can find something else. We are limited to how much we can earn each year until he reaches full retirement. So we have to watch that. If we make too much, at the end of the year we can be taxed on 50% or more of our benefits and lose benefits too. But the good news is, we're still paying into SS for Iodine's husband and the rest of our fellow Seniors out there. (Sorry about that raise Iodine. We'll try to do better the next time. )

Also for those working and under 65 who don't realize it: Simply put: The taxes you pay into SS are not going into an account with your name on it. It goes to the people getting SS now. (Thank you, btw.) Iodine's husband has helped pay for those seniors on SS during his working years. And now it's your turn to return the favor to Iodine's husband...and all those on SS today.

Now, we can get into a discussion about the pros and cons of disbanding SS in favor of private retirement insurance and investments (because businesses are also cutting and dismantling any employee retirement plans), but I hope that could go into another thread if someone wants to discuss it, rather than getting too far afloat from the issue of health care in America in this thread.

Re: "It's a cold day in Hell... I'm in agreement with Micheal Moore on healthcare" - thanks for adding this, BlackSpyder. It sent me off on a bit of research and for others like me that aren't too familiar with all this, hope no one minds my adding a link to 'Michael Moore talks health care crisis with Oprah' (has short video on site)..

http://thinkprogress.org/2007/06/16/michae...sis-with-oprah/


The more I read the posts, the more I wonder if it's possible that the people with the money, the people with the power (who are usually the ones that influence government the most) are simply of the same mind set of some - it's their money and as long as they are covered for health care, their obligation to any others is non-existent.

Wonder if the movie 'Sicko' will wake them up - or not.

Not to get too conspiratorial, but...

The elite of this world have long sought to eliminate the middle class. The middle class is a threat, because they are numerous and have just enough resources to challenge the upper crust.

Health care is just another way for them to decimate the middle class population. Those of us who are trying to live virtuous lives are targeted because we have something to lose (or be taken). How many families have been enslaved by the costs of medical care? Trust me, this money does not go back into the middle class. This is another New World Order form of control.


That rant being said, there is really nothing I can do about that right now. However, I can sympathize with those who have felt the burden, and we can push for a change.

Funny/sad isn't it; many of the things that should exist solely for the benefit of society have been perverted into yet another way to amass wealth and power (health care, government, public works)! Coincidence, I think not!

Funny/sad isn't it; many of the things that should exist solely for the benefit of society have been perverted into yet another way to amass wealth and power (health care, government, public works)! Coincidence, I think not! - B&G

There's a book out there that says..."the love of wealth is the root of all evil."

Everything you said past that is absolutely true. But fodder for another thread.

MaraM:

Thanks for the link to MM and Oprah. It pretty much put it all in a nutshell.

Saw this comment by one of the bloggers down the page. Another big truth in a small nutshell.

I must apologise as I'm not well-versed in how the USA's government is run - but is it not possible to have a vote by all citizens re health care? If left for the lobbyists or politians to decide, things may stay this bad?

Wouldn't it be lovely if, when we all trundle off to vote we not only are given a choice of who to vote for but a list of things to vote for. For instance, 10 issues that we could simply number in order of importance to us - they the people who are elected can't pretend they don't know what the people trying want.

These things are often done on the state government level, usually in the form of a ballot initiative, which if voted on by enough people becomes a proposal that goes on the ballots of regular elections.

Also, there are states that are taking on the initiative for universal health care. This is true of Massachusetts currently. http://www.valleyadvocate.com/article.cfm?aid=1873

Gov. Schwarzenegger is pushing for a similar program in California. http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflas...7072_732736.htm

Tennessee had something like universal health care through the TVA (Tennesse Valley Authority , which was an attempt to bring Appalicia into the 20th , a 3rd world country in the USA that didnt have electricity until 1990 in some parts) until 2003 when it was decided that it was no longer needed

I've been reading some stories recently where they are now saying there's not enough state money. So they are having to scale back who gets covered, how much, etc... or the plans still contain privatization elements, which we know won't work, because profit is still in the equation. Sorry for not having details, but I think that's the gist of it.

The problem is just to big to leave to the States alone, even if they get some Federal aid. MA and CA are relatively big states, with a higher economic job base, so more money comes in from their tax base. If they can't do it for everyone, how could the smaller, less "wealthy" states be expected to do it?