I think this would make a good topic.

The driving age. It has been shown that as teens get older accident rates fall. We let kids drive at 15 now days and with drivers ed they can drive without a adult during daylight hours just 180 days after they turn 15!

Even though I had experience driving more than most kids my age at 15(farm driving trucks and a four wheeler a lot) I was not prepared at 15 to drive. Infact I almost ran into a tree my first time and got so scared I did not drive again until almost 17.

A lot of this fear came from the fact it hit home that my friend died in a car accident and when I almost wrecked right after she died it scared me as it could happen to me.

Now some MAY be mature enough to drive WITH a adult at 15 most are not.

Should the driving age be raised? I am now 18 and might get my liscense soon. Problem is the insurance goes up 80 bucks a month as soon as I get it....Parents nor me wants to pay this so I dont have it.

Say 16 for permit and 18 for liscense?

And then the Seniors....
A lot of accidents are caused by them. Should after you turn 65 you then be forced to take a driving test every year or 2 years or???I know this first hand. My dads dad who is now 71? 72? has had some family members fall right off the atv before and he not even know it. He has drove a big tractor down the road and came home with a mailbox on the teeth of the plow.

Now he drives fine and these are rare but some people his age do these things all the time and are lucky nobody has died yet.

With kids these days, getting actual jobs younger and younger, they kinda need to drive. I agree many of them are irresponsible, but what else is there to do? And not every city has public transportation.

And seniers after the age of 60, and possibly younger, should be required to retake the driving test every year.

Don't have the answer but certainly do agree that seniors should take a test, especially in regard to reflexes and vision.

I sympathise CGM because your dear Grandpa shouldn't be driving. Period. The problem may be far spread when it comes to some seniors no longer being capable of driving safely - yet, in turn, to stop most from doing something they've always done - eep. Their family members cringe (and quite rightly) at the thought of demanding they stop. Now. Must confess I dithered like crazy when it came time for me to say, "Stop!" - and I took the easier way out. Simply mentioned my concerns to the family doctor and let him call my loved one in for an exam and during it, discovered all sorts of reasons to notify the Motor Vehcile Branch to send out a 'Notice for Re-Exam of Licence'. Cowardly perhaps, but it's hard enough to grow old I suspect without one's kids themselves starting to treat them like kids. Gentle sigh.

Re teenagers driving. Lots a great drivers. But more deaths happen on our roads from teenagers killing than any other cause. Perhaps if we all take one step back - and realize that the car can be - and often is - simply a deadly weapon. Ergo, young drivers want to drive, that fine - but in return they should legally be held responsible as an adult for any injury caused while behind the wheel.

- - -
PM to CGM ... Ever so sorry about your friend dying in a car accident. Gentle hug!

My licence expired in March last year @ 64, and I was required to take a medical. Failed the eye test and had to get new specs but that was it, no actual driving test. This one lasts for ten years, but next time I will be required to take an actual test. I have been driving for 50 years and had a lot of prangs back when I was a teenager. This is simply because younger ones take it for granted that they are invincible, and it is only experience that teaches them otherwise.

To raise the age limit is kind of self-defeating, as that only raises the age when experience starts.

If ALL DRIVERS would only realise that any motor vehicle is a lethal weapon, and treat it as such, there would be a lot less carnage on our roads.
I reckon it would be a great idea to require drivers to undergo a DEFENSIVE DRIVING course before gaining their full licence - in that way any bad habits taught by friends, parents, etc could be picked up and rectified, and good driving habits could be hammered home, before you receive your final licence.

Cheers

Here,due to the high number of teenage Driver deaths on our roads,our Government has taken steps to try and reduce these road deaths.At 16yrs and 10 months,you get a learner Driver permit.The learner driver must now complete 120 hrs of driving while having a teacher with them at all times.This must be logged as to times,distances covered,and must be accident free.What Parent can leave the house for this amount of time,really?
Then after tests you get a Provisional Licence for one year.This is speed limited,zero Alcohol and no accidents.And only 1 passenger allowed in the vehicle at any one time.Any infringement and you lose your Provisional Licence and after a certain period you have to start all over again.
The courts are forcing Provisional drivers who have serious accidents to visit Morgues to view first hand what being an idiot on the road can cause.Also they are forced to look at Graphic pictures of badly mutilated road accident victims,much to their horror.Whether this has any effect on their behavior,only time will tell.
As for the Older Drivers,many are quite good Drivers,and some are horrors and cause many accidents here anyway.
Here there are no checks on a Drivers ability till they reach 85 yrs of age.Then a medical and a Driving Test every year there after.This in my opinion is far too late in life.I believe from 65yrs is more sensible.Many by 65yrs have severe medical conditions and swear they have a right to drive based on their previous Driving record.They are only endangering other drivers,being on the road with these conditions.My Father at 85 yrs is so stubborn and won't let me discuss his Driving habits.
Their reaction times at this age are nearly non existent.I worry he may get into an accident and kill my Mother.You can't tell 'em.

Now thats not fair....Accidents are just that accidents.



Its not just experience thats whats needed it maturity and your brain grows as it gets older and does not stop until like 25?
They dont have the MENTAL ability its not physical for a teen as we have plenty of reaction.

Problem is kids can study a book,take a test and then drive is not a safe way to do it. They should be MADE to take drivers ed BEFORE getting the permit.Some parents are not good drivers either.

Interesting stuff CGM. I actually don't think raising the limit would solve the issue. I personally started working at 15, and needed a vehicle, because both of my parents worked long hours.

When I drive around down here, there are countless wreaths and crosses on display at various intersections and points along roads and highways. The majority are indeed teenagers that were incapable of controlling the car at high speeds. Many times, alcohol was involved. At certain high schools, driver courses are mandatory, and they are not mediocre courses. They actually teach how to make corrections when the car loses control, etc. At one high school, they show videos and pictures of the aftermath of drunk driving/impaired driving. Teen accidents in that particular school zone are much lower than other places without these methods. So it may seem as usual, that education is the key to solving the problem.

I do agree with you though CGM, that it does take a certain maturity to be respectful while driving.

Wow, 10 full years before having to have a licence renewed - that in itself is surprising, rowal5555. (Glad you passed yours with only needing new specs - yipee!!).

Here we have something similar to what DSTM mentioned they have in Australia - getting one's licence in stages - and it's a great idea. What we don't have is strong enough penalties when disaster happens.

As I mentioned before, I feel everyone behind the wheel of a car should be held responsible - legally an an adult - for any injury they cause while driving. And I'm sorry, CGM, I don't agree with "Now thats not fair....Accidents are just that accidents".

The car is literally a potental lethal weapon. If one feels he or she is old enough to drive one, they should be willing to stand up for the consequences of what happens when they do. And along with our 'get your licence in stages', I wish we too forced all potential drivers (of any age) to witness first hand what can and does happen every day on our roads, just as DSTM mentioned.

It is not an 'accident' when kids are screaming down city streets at over 100mph, racing each other and slam into a child on a bike. That is not an accident - and I don't honestly care if the kids driving are only 16.

I've had the horrible experience of watching a young woman screaming her lungs out and clawing at the inside windows of her car. She had good reason. She was literally burning alive. The two street racers walked away with a fine and less than a month in jail - why, because they were kids.

Many kids are great drivers. Many drive their cars like a weapon. Accidents are not 'just accidents'. An accident is when one is driving as responsibly as possible and something happens. Nope, 'accidents are just that accidents' does not apply to all of the carnage that happens on our streets. And 'fair' - unless it has rides and cotton candy, it's not a fair.

But do you acknowledge when it is indeed a total accident, there should be no penalty? Or are you saying that no matter what the case, it should have a penalty?

Okay, now I'm not only laughing but once again darn near had my coffee shoot up my poor nose!

" But do you acknowledge when it is indeed a total accident, there should be no penalty? Or are you saying that no matter what the case, it should have a penalty?

Here in Canada, at least, we do have 'no penalty' for a 'total accident' in many cases. For instance, if a driver is creeping along during an ice storm and slithers off the road into a tree or into another car - other than having to pay for the physical damage causes (or in reality, one's insurance pays it), there would be nor should be an additional other penalty.

Why? The driver was driving as responsibly as he or she could with the circumstances in existance at the time.

However, if a driver of any age decides to drive like an idiot during the same circumstances and he hits someone and causes damage, that is his fault and not something I could consider a non-culpable accident.

Thank you for clarifying. I wasn't sure how you felt based upon these random thoughts....

I can kill someone with about anything if done right. If its a accident its just that....



Of course its a accident! They didnt do it on purpose!

Its just irresposibility for sure but not done purposely.

I've been driving since i was13 (believe it or not Ive been driving class 7 trucks since i was 15) and there wasnt much of a difference between me and many of my peers who had only started driving at 15 (when you could get a learners permit back then). I wreaked a good many times but my trucks were built very solid (this is the true cause of most teenage deaths in auto accidents nowadays... i'll rant on this later). Now that i have a CDL (Commercial Drivers License) I am required to have a full physical and Drug Screen every year and have to retake the test every 5 years i think (theyll send me a letter when I have to. They always do) It really doesnt bother me. Seniors are a problem that needs to be dealt with. One of the guys that I work with recently had his license suspended and his CDL revoked for a Nervous System problem. He should have had both revoked because according to the hack company doctor the issue can reappear at any time (which is also true of high risk people for Heart Attacks and Strokes).

Now to rant on the TRUE killer of teen drivers.

Auto Manufacturers today live by the code of "Lighter, Stronger, Faster, more Efficient". Take for example my 1971 pickup which weighs in at a whopping 2 tons (American/4000 lbs) where as my newer (1994) truck tips the scales at 1.5 Tons (3000 lbs) 1000 lbs lighter then the old one. Why?
1) Thinner Frame Rails used to make "Crumple Zones" (more like crush your legs Zones),
2) Fiberglass Body parts (Fenders, bumpers, hoods, etc ) This stuff cracks and breaks when you lean on it wrong. Steel bends and takes some of the force away from a crash)
3) Lighter Sheet metal parts and reinforcings (Doors, door reinforcements,Roofline, A/B/C pillars, ect) . All the pieces that are made now are of lighter gauges of steel that crush at lighter pressures (Remember being able to lean on your car door and it wouldnt dent) Also the reinforcments to the doors are made of "I" beams which are very strong when struck head on but fold over on themselves when hit at an angle.
4) Finally Aluminum engine parts. You used to have to sacrifice 200lbs to put a Big Block Chevy where a Small bock once resided (Big Blocks weigh approx 700 lbs Small Blocks 500 lbs) now that is not the case both are about the same weight wise and now produce more horsepower then ever before.
5) The Unibody Frame. Consists of 3 frame sections 1)Front Clip, 2) Rear Clip, and 3) Center Section (aka the floor board of your car) Both Clips are built very similar to older cars solid frames. the Center section is a reinforced section of floorboard where the other 2 sections are bolted to. Guess where they break. ( Mid 80's Mustang Convertibles were bad about bowing down in that section) drops alot of weight off of a car not having 6 feet of thick wall Channel iron.


When you reduce the weight of a car you create more speed and efficacy and require less horsepower to do so. But when you start to take away structural integrity to do so you start killing people.

I've only skimmed through this as im about to go to bed, but has anyone mentioned motorbikes? Just found it strange how different coutries have different laws. Over here we can start driving at 17 (over here being England).

That said motorbikes are completely different. at 16 you can take a test to ride a 50cc bike, which at a push may be able to do 50mph. Then at 17 you can take another test which allows you to ride anything that is restricted down to around 30bhp. While taking that test however your not allowed anything higher than a 125cc engine. Its only 2 years after you have held that licence that your able to take yet another test which allows you to ride any bike. Or if your 21 you can take a Direct Access course which allows you to skip right to the last tests.

Was speaking to my kickboxing instructor however. Bought the subject up of CBT (compulsory Basic Training), which is what you have to complete before you take ANY of these tests. Apparently, "back in his day" they didnt have that. He said the person who took normal car lessons done the motorbike tests too. And s/he didnt follow behind you on another bike either. They set the course out for you and left you too it. Meanwhile s/he would cut through various alleys and meet you at certain points on the way and do things like emergancy brake tests, etc. This was done on a bike up to 100cc. After you had completed your test you could jump onto almost ANY sized engine bike you wanted!!! My intructor told me his friend done the test and went staight to a 400cc bike he already had waiting!!

Whats it like in other countries? Or is it mostly the same?

In Virginia (in the US every state is a little different) you go to the Department of Motor Vehicles take the written test and pick up your Motorcycle Learners Permit at the age of 18. Six months later you go back and take the riding exam on your own bike (any legal size 51-90 cc bikes are illegal here) and pick up your Motorcycle drivers license.

as a fellow aussie like DSTM i just can't get my head around the US system of allowing such young people to drive. As he pointed out our regulations have just been beefed up to curb the horror road deaths of those predominantly under the age of 21. Having a handful of close friends who live in the US i feel it fair to point out some glaring differences that make our cultures so radically different, and perhaps show you how the Aussies deal with stuff such as this.

First off our educational campaigns, they are graphic reproductions of horrible events such as violent car accidents, drink driving incidents, and they are veiwed regularly on "free to air" TV nationally. They work, they shock the poo poo out of you, to the point where my friend from Washington State came over one year and saw one of our adds and nearly cried. He told me that stuff like this would never hit the airwaves in The States but he agreed it should.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDMulyrL1no

or this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7984fg1xr0...ted&search=

or this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbaeNQ_fVEM...ted&search=

At the end of any debate, results have to be forthcoming, and it's our governments belief that we are getting results through this sort of awareness. As for younger drivers well an accident just on 6 months ago sparked an urgent response by politicians to make legislation that prevents the unessary deaths of teenagers by the carload. ^ young people died in an horrific crash that saw two carloads of young drivers collide head-on through a combination of speed, alcohol, and inexperience.

Accidents don't happen, they are caused. If more of us just accepted that fact then perhaps we stand a chance of being proactive and eliminating some or all of the causes. As the victim of an accident that wound me up in a wheelchair for a year and still having surgery to rebuild my body i can tell you first hand that education is key, at any age, at any cost.

You can still make a car safe that weighs less. I have a honda civic. It weighs little over 1 ton(2300lbs or so) and it received like a 5 star crash test rating.
They just did not know how to make cars like they do today. Cars would be fine and plenty safe with no doors or support if it was not for the drivers. They cause the accidents. A car going down the road doesn't hurt the driver its other people hitting each other that hurts them.

On the topic of motorbikes at age 15 you can drive any CC bike you want by yourself with your permit as long as a adult is riding a bike with you or riding a seperate bike beside you. That means at 15 I could ride a 1000cc sport bike just as easy as I could a moter scooter with 120cc's.

Thats crazy!!! Where is that?

To quote a wise man: Its not the Fall that kills you, its the landing.

Government and Insurance crash test ratings are a joke. 1) They are based on a "objective" sliding rule. 2) I was a firefighter for 3 years and have never seen a car crash like the ones done in their "lab". No one gets T-Boned at a perfect 90 degree angle and no one nails their car into a wall (centered or off center) at a perfect 90 degrees. The physics and geometry dont lie.

(Prepares to break out "AutoMath")

No, the final result may not be 'done on purpose'. But the steps to getting to that final result, are 'done on purpose'. Using my above comment re street racers ... they and they alone make the decision to speed at excessive rates, they and they alone make the decision to race each other - and they and they alone are responsible that their sole decisions result in the often ugly ending.

Each decision they made they made on purpose - ergo, not a true 'accident' at all.
- - -
Thanks for the links, dfence, and I hope so much that with each month your injuries are improving - how horrible!

I wish so much that our system was far similar to Australia's, shown by both DSTM and dfence - I'd rather have kids and all drivers crying from seeing these things than cooling on a slab.

Well I live in south carolina but as far as I know its everywhere. Yep any size cc sport bike as long as you can afford the insurance which can be higher or lower than your car according to the make,model and cc's it has.

I don't think it's entirely the reaction speed or mental capacity of a teenager. I think it's more of the risks involved. If one is pounded with news about how kids younger and younger are being killed in accidents I think it raises awareness of how careful you should be. That's what my family has done to me since I was 14, and pretty much stopped when I was 18. They would find clips in the paper and take special care to point them out to me. Ever since then I have pretty much been careful about driving. I did start driving at the age of 17 by myself and my parents were careful about what trips I took.

I liked how my girlfriends parents and pretty much any adult was careful about where I went (as for distance and highways). But after about a year or so driving I think I have found a few things that make a good driver a (well..) good driver.

1. Don't rush; leave in plenty of time. If the speed limit is 55mph, just go 55 - 57. No need to use the "full 5 over."

2. Be courtesy. If you see a car looking to get into your lane from a turn, let him. Be nice. Driving is not a competition.

3. Don't speed up just because someone is riding your rear. (It took me a while to get use to this). If someone really wants to get somewhere in a hurry little the poor idiot pass you. Let him risk his life to get their in a hurry.

4. Try to not to tunnel vision drive. If you have tunnel vision (which I do too). Try to focus on things beside just the road infront of you. Like focus on the sides up ahead to see if there are any dogs, cats, deer, etc.. cars that might dart out in front of you.

Overall be careful and safe!

- good ones! I especially like the 'driving is not a competition' - so true!

Our educational campaigns in the US don't extend to national television, but I can remember having to watch a movie titled "Signal 30" in junior high and high school in the sixties. This movie showed graphic scenes of accidents, crashed cars and trucks, injured and dead bodies. One scene that I'll never forget is of the driver of a big rig pinned to the dashboard by the load of steel pipes he was hauling. This movie was so gross that they showed if before lunch so that there was less mess to clean up.

I found a link that plays the movie, if you are up to it click here.

Edit: I must warn anyone viewing this that it is very graphic, it shows actual footage of accident scenes. If this type of content bothers you please don't watch this.

While these clips are totally horrific, I think that a short sharp reminder to those about to learn to drive (and all drivers of course) is a very good thing. Anything which can minimise the 'I am Invincible' attitude has to get a seal of approval.

Series of graphic ads are shown here on national television, and seem to have an impact.

Cheers

Yes 'rowal5555' These graphic adds seem to be having some effect on our young Drivers.They seem to think they are ten feet tall and bullett proof. The survivors of horrific accidents,in their Wheel Chairs for life,thought it wouldn't happen to them,either.If it saves only one life,then these Adds have been worthwhile in my opinion.

I just have to wonder why they don't go to the same extent here in the States. If it deters poor driving and bad driving choices, which it clearly does, why the heck not show this kind of thing? Something really needs to be done.

I saw a 5 car pile-up on the way to work this morning. I couldn't help but notice the group of people....all looked in their 20's or younger. One vehicle was a big SUV, one minivan, a truck, a sedan, and pinned against the median wall (virtually crushed beyond recognition), looked to be a mustang. This was on a major expressway in rush hour traffic. First of all, because of the sheer volume of traffic, its very difficult to get to a high speed...I don't know for sure yet what caused the accident.

These sorts of accidents are a daily occurrence. Not only that, but there are at least 2 fatal accidents every day on our major expressways. Sometimes many more than that.

While on the subject of young Drivers,Our Government has come down so hard on Spinning the wheels,doing Dougnuts and street Drag Racing. 1st offence Heavy Fine and Car impounded for 28 Days. Second offence 2 to 3 Thousand Dollar fine and Car impounded for 3 Months. 3rd offence Car confiscated,and you don't ever get it back. You hardly ever see a Drag Race off the Lights any more. Sure fixed the problem. Used to be nothing unusual for two idiots side by side in front of you doing 20 klms P/H deliberately holding up all the traffic,waiting for the lights to change red so they could Drag Race off the lights with nobody in front of them.My car used to get showered with rubbish off the roadway,from their spinning tyres,if I was unlucky enough to be behind them.Or more scarey, when sometimes you would be coming home from a night out with the Family in the car on the Freeway doing 100klms speed limit and all of a sudden 2 dragracers,lights on high beam coming up behind you doing 200+ Klms P/H. You just freeze and hope to hell they miss you as one is forced to overtake you on the wrong side.I have no sympathy seeing 19 -25 yr olds with tears on TV as their pride and Joy is being loaded onto a Tow Truck.I think one less danger on our busy roads.

EDIT.This was a meeting in our Parliament a few years ago addressing the Problem.A lot tougher now.

http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/prod/parl...33;OpenDocument

The second "Communist" state (Virginia only a few steps behind Ohio at this point) has unleashed a new set of fines for moving and non moving Violations. Kiss my raise goodbye and say hello to higher fines (Just to ensure the workers at AOL and Washington DC can get to work smoothly).

Oh if you havent noticed all ready these fines only apply to Virginia drivers.

USA Today Story

The full PDF file of new fines (From MSN)

Even with the threat of high fines and vehicle confiscation, 'Boy Racers' have become a real menace here too, especially in the early hours of the morning. With modern communications it is not hard to keep ahead of the Law.
Some residential areas have been so terrorised by these hoons that a number of Councils have passed bylaws prohibiting any vehicles in certain places unless the driver has a legitimate reason to be there. Pretty draconian, but what else can you do?. Will be interesting to see if it makes any difference.

I was reading your New Zealand Governments "Boy Racer Act" 'rowal5555' and it seems they have come down pretty heavy on street racing.The law allows in some cases for imprisonment for 3 months. I think one night in the Slammer locked up with a huge Maori doing his War Dance,would be enough to scare any young driver into doing the right thing on the roads. I even find this Dance intimidating to watch on TV.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3788249896856764811

I don't know how this thread got from driving age to income tax, but today I saw a young person in a car not holding the steering wheel at all. She was just sitting there pedaling in a straight line. People like this really shouldn't be allowed to drive (even though some may think it is "cool" to drive like that.)

I don't think 16 is a proper driving age. I can't imagine myself driving or going to the lessons yet. The driving age for teens is 18 in here (Finland).

As long as you know how to behave while driving, and know what's going on around you, and know how to actually steer the car let alone knowing the law part of it, you (SHOULD) be fine -- unfortunately there are others who might not, and there might be any and all accidents happening anyway.


No, they shouldn't.

I sit in traffic on the expressway on my way home from work in the early afternoon...I don't use my hands often, only using my knee. I don't think its "cool", I think its "comfortable." I have been driving since I was 16 and hydroplaned once, and that was the only accident I had. I started working from age 15, and definitely needed to drive when I was 16 as my parents had no way to shuttle me to and from my job.

Every person is different, and the age to me, 16, 17, 18, etc...makes no difference with this issue. In places where driver education is a mandatory part of school; Accidents, and particularly teen speeding/driving drunk issues are far less.

It is interesting to read the views of (mostly) American contributors to this topic. If it helps, I can give a view from England. You have to to be 17 years old before you can get a provisional licence to drive a car in the UK - the provosional lecince being similar to the 'Learners' permit. I spent twenty years teaching people of all ages to drive - as you will know the "stick shift" is the more usual type of transmission here - you can pass a driving test in an automatic but you will be restricted to automatics until you pass a test in a 'stick-shift' car. The oldest person I taught was 72 years and, of course I taught a lot (probably about six hundred) 17 year olds!! The thought of a fifteen year old behind the wheel of a car gives me nightmares. Fifteen year olds have enough to do coping with the tail end of adolescence never mind the stresses and vagaries of traffic. My opinion is that ALL drivers - irrespective of age - should be tested every five years. The driving licence here is free of medical restriction (except for declared pre-existing conditions and a minimum eye standard) until age 70. The problem is that even in this country there are so many drivers that a five year test would be impossible to impliment and I imagine it would be the same in the US, it is simply a question of logistics. So, while there are answers out there, these answers propogate their own questions and therefore we are forced to rely upon good and continuing road safety education until governments can expand budgets for a more practical approach.

It is interesting to read the views of (mostly) American contributors to this topic. If it helps, I can give a view from England. You have to to be 17 years old before you can get a provisional licence to drive a car in the UK - the provisional licence being similar to the 'Learners' permit. I spent twenty years teaching people of all ages to drive - as you will know the "stick shift" is the more usual type of transmission here - you can pass a driving test in an automatic but you will be restricted to automatics until you pass a test in a 'stick-shift' car. The oldest person I taught was 72 years and, of course I taught a lot (probably about six hundred) 17 year olds!! The thought of a fifteen year old behind the wheel of a car gives me nightmares. Fifteen year olds have enough to do coping with the tail end of adolescence never mind the stresses and vagaries of traffic. My opinion is that ALL drivers - irrespective of age - should be tested every five years. The driving licence here is free of medical restriction (except for declared pre-existing conditions and a minimum eye standard) until age 70. The problem is that even in this country there are so many drivers that a five year test would be impossible to implement and I imagine it would be the same in the US, it is simply a question of logistics. So, while there are answers out there, these answers propagate their own questions and therefore we are forced to rely upon good and continuing road safety education until governments can expand budgets for a more practical approach.