This is sad. I thought it would be speak easy type material.

A woman in new york went topless in the park and was arrested. She was held for 12 hours before being let go.
In new york there is no law against going topless for women only the lower parts have to be covered. Supposedly anywhere a man can go like a park or the local new york beaches.

She got 29k for a settlement.

http://www.charlotte.com/120/story/164215.html

Should women be allowed to go topless where a man can like on beaches and parks or does this "equality" rights they keep asking for a bunch of hogwash because men and women are different up there?

They do go topless in europe....

Spent a lot of time in Europe, have you?

Nope just what I have read....Personally I think they are CRAZY if they do that there! Can anyone say yuck???

And you believe everything you read?

Cows...were you referring to topless beaches? Or women walk around wherever they want, topless...

In response to the original question: I believe women should be allowed to go topless if they so desire, but can I reserve the right to sue them if I have an accident resulting from the obvious distractions it would cause me?

For myself, there is a lot of 'sadness' involved in this story. Sad that the Police officer(s) weren't aware of the law stating she wasn't breaking any law within their State and perhaps because of this, subjected her to humiliating treatment ...and sad that it took 12 hours before she was finally released (wonder if it took that long to discover that what she'd done wasn't illegal) - because how one personally feels about this issue, she was not breaking any law.

But most of all, I think you've brought up an extremely good topic, CGM.

Legalties aside for the moment ...

We were all born nude. Little ones parade around on the beach happily nude as can be and few, if any object. At what age does our society, in general, start to think a baby to old for this and he or she would wear 'appropriate attire'?

And even younger than that, if we put male and female children together - both nude as can be - neither will think it "yuck" or even odd - chances are they will do some fast comparing and move on to other things far more important, like seeing who can stuff more pebbles in their ears.

But to your question: "Should women be allowed to go topless where a man can like on beaches and parks or does this "equality" rights they keep asking for a bunch of hogwash because men and women are different up there?"

I'm asking this with sincerely and respect ... is finding a women walking around topless truly 'yuck' in the physical or natural sense of the word - or 'yuck' because this is a response we have been taught.

I kinda think it is "whoopee!",

but that's just me.

If you go out in public your supposed to wear clothes. Otherwise why are we spending $20 for t-shirts? I like them as much as the next guy (and in my travels Ive seen plenty of free shows on the interstate, the downward and blind spot mirrors on a semi when properly aligned can see into the car beside them, just a warning for everyone who didnt know) but have some self respect and cover them up. I dont go out without a shirt on even going to the pool I wear a shirt, I expect the same out of others.

My question wasn't intended as a 'bait' or anything - honest!

I laughed when I read your words, JohnWho and that's one of the reasons I think 'nude beaches' are so important. I have nothing at all about people having a great time at one of them - or, for that matter, if I'm in another country where it's prevelant (can't spell today) in many public areas as, after all, I'm a guest in their country.

For myself, I'm one of those people with society imposed values - in fact, I have a heck of a time not turning beet red when a young mother whips her breast out to feed her baby at the table next to me in a restaurant. Yes, I know she has the right to do so but I always have this huge huge urge to offer her a napkin to show a little discretion rather than full breast.

Nearly every society thinks nude little kids running around the beach are cute and just fine. (I used to think so too until a wee stranger came bouncing over to say hi and in his excitement promptly peed on our watermelon! )

Some societies insist that all body parts be completely covered and ours, well in general, I think most may prefer we keep some of our public decorum intact, including covering most body parts in general public.

Do wonder what started the 'wear clothes at all times' though?

This is just a personal opinion of course...I happen to be fond of my wife's...you know...I don't want an excuse to admire other women. Of course, lust would be an issue. And again, personally, I would rather a law be passed for men to not be able to expose their chest, rather than women be allowed to. I think there would be a lot more sexual crimes if the latter were to happen.

I was talking like on the beaches in some places in europe and local parks I read too. Not just on the street.



When they realize they are naked and they start to notice "differences" in males and females.



Well mara I agree with what was said above. All guys like them. The femnists say we should somehow "make" boobs not sexual and they be just like a arm or hand in public.

I dont think they are "yuck" but to me it seems to show they dont care about their bodies and will show it to anyone. If they want a tan "there" do it in your backyard....

So lets just ask the guys here for fun.

No matter how many times you seen "em" you never get tired of seeing them now do you? This in relation to what the femnists want.

Cgm, Our recognition that nudity is not the social norm is not normal, we teach our children that it is otherwise they would never know. There are people in third world countries who don't wear clothes and pay no attention to their nudity as it is the accepted norm.

Yes....and they have sex pushed on them 24/7 just like America through television, Internet, advertising, etc....right?

Oh...no. Never mind.

Do they have any kind of sexual abuse in those third world countries? Of course, depending on what country you are talking about, sometimes they sew women up, or mutilate them. Yeah, I get your point. They don't pay attention at all.

The truth is most american adolecent do not get any real talking to about certain things in a sexual aspect, and therefore have uncontrollable urges, now haveing a young woman walking down the street topless with current adolecents would be inviting trouble. I think we were all born naked, thats fine, but exposing your body parts for all to see just encourages dirty thoughts, therefore women just like men should have to wear a shirt, or at least a bra (ohh yeah that goes for us guys too ). I believe that if your truely interested in founding a strong relationship with someone else, a bond like love, that You shouldn't even be thinking about body parts but what's in your mind and hers. In other words eyes off the body parts and instead form a true relationship and to stay true to your loved one.

(NOTE: I meant eyes off, I have edited to reflect this)

Re: "I believe that if your truely interested in founding a strong relationship with someone else, a bond like love, that You shouldn't even be thinking about body parts but what's in your mind and hers. In other words eyes of the body parts and instead form a true relationship and to stay true to your loved one." Put very nicely, ussr1943!


Re: "When they realize they are naked and they start to notice "differences" in males and females". Little children and I do mean little - as in far less than a year old - notice 'differences' and then go on to other things. It's as, dc3 said, we teach our children that in our society it's not 'normal' to run around nude. I'm not saying our society is wrong, merely that it's a taught reaction rather than a natural reaction re nudity.

Surely having 'sex' pushed at one in our society doesn't warrant acting upon one's urges. There was a time when, if a women even showed her ankles, in our wonderful countries, that she was considered 'cheap'. While I may not be for nudity in our society (except at designated beaches, etc), also am not sure that mutilation of women in some countries is based on whether or not women wearing bras and blouses, rather it's a cultural thing. (This this is a really old - a beyond horrible - practice was, if I remember correctly, was transported to Yemen from Africa, etc).

In our country, we don't accept nudity well - in another country, it's literally a 'natural thing' and yup, many do go naked pretty much anywhere they please apparently. But then again, it's their country and if their society sees nothing wrong it is, who are we to say our 'prudish' ways are better? (I use the word 'prude' because many Europeans consider us just that, "prudes" - grin).

I thought it was legal for women to be topless in the New York State Parks. I wasn't aware that in was legal in general public.

When this first came about I saw a woman on the beach at a local state park topless. The funny thing was.. no one really seemed to notice. She was the only one I was aware of. No one pointed at her and laughed or made any comments whatsoever to her that I could tell. Just becaue it is legal to do so, most women wouldn't go topless. If I wanted to go topless I am sure that there are places I could go to do it. I don't want to though. I don't think it is gross, or especially bad. I just am modest that way. If I see a woman breast feeding her child I think that it is just a woman tending to her business. It really is not that big of a deal. I would rather the mother bared her breast to feed her child than have to listen to a screaming hungry child cry. I am glad the mother is free to do as she must. I do feel it is too bad that there even has to be a question about whether or not she should be allowed to bare her breast to feed her baby. If a child is hungry then that child needs to be fed. Anyone who takes offense at a mother breastfeeding her baby in public has a personal issue/complex about female breasts and should just shut up and be quiet and not project their insecurities on a mother and child.

As for public nudity.. go live in a nudist colony where everyone is doing it and it does not cause a distraction. Personally, I think clothes are better for cleanliness and safety. For protection.

Let us turn this around and look at it another way. I do not want to see a shirtless man that is maybe older or has quite prominent man breast LOL so.. I do not particularly care to see a woman's breasts either. In the proper places then I think it is fine.

Pandy - I have to applaud your stance on a woman feeding her baby in public, really I do. I what I was trying to say - but obviously said badly - was that I have the problem, not the mom feeding her baby (as in I'm the one who turns red and has a silent urge to hand over a napkin). It's just a hold-over from my upbringing when a mom either went into another room to feed baby (ugh!) or simply draped a diaper or something over her shoulder and breast. Still prefer that, but again, that's my problem and I'm not about to tell a mom she can't being fully exposed if she chooses.

The same way that I turned red the first time I saw naked men and women walking around a public park - my problem, not theirs as it was their country and their custom.

Re: "The femnists say we should somehow "make" boobs not sexual and they be just like a arm or hand in public" - and I'm not picking on you here, CGM, honestly ... but again, is it not possible that if we hadn't been taught it was inappropriate, we would likely think of breasts as we do an arm or leg or hand in public - simply another part of the human anatomy.

Wonder if some "feminists" are perhaps more concerned with trying to show all people should be treated equally regardless of gender than seriously thinking or hoping women in general really want to run around topless?

I am not a prude and I find Women attractive as much as the next Guy.I prefer Women to cover their Breasts in Public.Even a bra I consider ample. I don't like Guys who flaunt themselves with large Breasts and Hairy like a Gorilla.A smart shirt is a better look in my opinion. Europe is full of Topless Bathers in Summer. I have been on the French Riveria a number of times,and nobody even bothers to look twice at a Topless female.Our Native Australians have been topless since I can remember and still are.I think it is what society accepts as normal behavior what counts.Step outside those boundaries and you will draw attention.I would certainly object my wife parading in Public Topless,with other men getting an eye full. You can Google Topless Bathers and any European Country to realize this is wide spread. I think there is no need for it,and IMO they are only exhibitionists. In ninety cases out of one hundred,if only these Women realized,it's not a good look.

EDIT: Saw a what I call a stupid ADD here,re Breasts. Went something like this:
If you fear losing your Husband due to your Breast shrinkage since Child Birth, then let us try and save your marriage.
Visit our Breast Enlargment Clinic and be amazed what we can do for you...............I thought this add was sick and preying on women's feelings and emotions.

Heard that one to many times. Its apples to oranges debate with that one.....

No see what the femnists say is that our(men) liking of the breast if fully taught by society. So very not true. Another fact is men DO look in europe at the topless women. Just because you dont see them does not mean they dont look or just think its just nothing.

The fact is men ARE visual. Its not by society that we are that way either. Its the hormones.

Ask any guy what he wants to see a woman in and he will probably tell you naked. Why would they want them to cover up? Of course they like it....if all they had to do was make it legal to get to see naked or topless women they are fine. Thats why nobody complains. And the sad fact is the women dont seem to get it that they arent being treated any better than if they had their tops on.

How do I know its not all society? Because I am a guy. If it was society all 10 year olds would "like" boobs too but they seem to not.

Its about 12-14 when guys start to "like" boobs. Its hormones. Boobs are not and never will be in ANY society whether in public view or not just like a arm. A female does not get breasts until she is well sexually developing or sexually ready. They are tied to her sexuality. Its a sign naturally to guys she is ready to have kids. Its not society doing this but it does help.

I mean us guys could handle the girls topless around us. We like it or like to look. We are not going to do anything.

The problem is this world is a fallen world. Men and women act around each other in certain ways. Running naked cant be non sexual or non sensual because those parts cant be just like a hand. If we did not "know" we were naked it would be fine. On a Biblical take on this every since Adam and Eve sinned we "knew" we were naked.

Even if you have no intention of being sexual by being topless or naked does that mean its not to men or someone? No....

And then there is even if it was accepted by a society to run topless should a woman do it?

It has been studied that EUROPE has way more cases of breast cancer than the USA. It also started to increase when women started being allowed to go topless. I read something that said when womens breasts grow the skin gets thinner and more prone to sunburn than other parts of the body such as a arm or even a mans chest. Doctors said no more than 15 mins of "topless time" should be done per day for this reason. Yet people sit and literally "bake" in the sun for that tan.

Tanning is very very dangerous and makes people ugly. Gives them wrinkles and cancer. I think i'd rather be white.

CGM...you are so naive if this is what you believe, it's time to leave the farm and see what really is going on in the world.

There have been several attempts in this thread to explain that this is a difference of mindset between European men and the men in the US. Do all men enjoy looking at a beautiful woman, you bet! But where European men tend to look and appreciate the beautiful woman the men for the most part here ogle a beautiful woman. Where does this difference in mindset come from? It's the way that we are brought up. Are all teen age males driven by hormones, you betcha, and teenagers will be teenagers all over the world. What we are talking about are adult males who have considerably more control of their hormones, but there is a difference in the European decorum and their US counterparts and this is directly related to the difference in the way we have been brought up.

You brought up breast cancer and mention it in the same sentence with too much sun, I hope you're not implying that exposure to the sun causes breast cancer. There has been evidence that directly ties Cutaneous Melanoma and excessive exposure to the sun, but not breast cancer per say.

One last thing, and please don't take this the wrong way, but have you considered proofreading you posts?

I'm just guessing, but I'll bet:

1 - you are not a woman (neither am I, but I've talked to many)

2 - you've never been a woman walking around in a crowded area or on an elevator in Europe. (neither have I, but I've talked to many who have)

Does the word "grope" or "pinch" mean anything to you? As a means of showing "appreciation", I wonder how often it is appreciated, and whether the woman would have preferred to be ogled?

Just wonderin'.

Yes I considered it just like brushing my teeth and I just said nahhh....ha ha

I thought everything was spelled correctly? Oh well.

So there is the "American man" and the "Euro man" to different man species huh?



I bet they do.... All men have hormones and I doubt many men can just "appreciate" there bodies and think nothing else. I just dont see that. I could be wrong but from what I see they dont think any different than us no matter how many they have seen naked or topless.

In-fact porn is just as big if not bigger in europe.

What I miss most with the Internet is not being able to see Members looks on their faces,when they read some of these posts.

People actually read this stuff!?

Whoa!

Maybe I should re-think what I'm doing here?

ogle (awesome word. I'm gunna look that one up)

As for seeing members faces reading these posts this would be mine currently
As for the "euro v america" thing, I'd say drop it because most of whats going on is assumption and stereotyping.

If I'm understanding this correctly ...

Two of the reasons given for a woman not to go topless:

1. It's not acceptable in our society (and it is/isn't acceptable in other societies?)
2. It causes men's hormones to run rampant and may cause more sexual attacks, etc

or

"The problem is this world is a fallen world. Men and women act around each other in certain ways. Running naked cant be non sexual or non sensual because those parts cant be just like a hand. If we did not "know" we were naked it would be fine. On a Biblical take on this every since Adam and Eve sinned we "knew" we were naked".

With honest respect, I can't quite follow that.

I'm not saying you're wrong at all - but if I understand the above paragraph correctly, the Bible says it's a bad thing to be naked?

Rather than us taking over the topic while discussing the religious aspects of things like this, I wonder if it would be possible to start this part under the SpeakEasy thread, "Misc Religious topics"?

Exactamundo!

If European men didn't find women just as exciting as American men do,

I suspect that there would be less and less European children.

I just think that this woman was doing this for the publicity (ahem, Pheonix Freely sounds like a stripper or porn name to me) , just like the woman who practiced her pole dancing routine in her yard on a flag pole (cant remember where but I think it was in the midwest).

I wounder if this woman has any self-respect running around topless in a city of millions of weirdos and creeps and what not. She's lucky she wasn't raped or kidnapped because lets face it that kinda thing does happen every day in the US.

Breast feeding I cant complain about. It's just a natural thing that cant be changed.

Europe is getting younger while America is getting younger studies say.

I am complaining about Breast Feeding in Public, if it's not done properly.

Who sets the standard?

Exactly! Who decides what is proper? DSTM, your idea of proper may not be someone elses. One doesn't have to look you know, one can look away. A person does not have to keep watching something improper, if they consider it to be such. Personally I think it is a harmless enough thing to see in public. Like I said before.. as long as I do not have to listen to a hungry crying baby (which makes me sad, not because it's noisy) then please, by all means feed that baby. I really don't see the harm in it.

I heard a good Christian guy say this about morals and moral degration and who gets to make the laws.

You are on a playground. First thing you see is a huge sign saying the rules.No hitting, share the balls, no spitting on the girls and such.

Kids are all playing fine together. They know the rules. Then some kid gets tired of sharing the ball and runs away with it.

The kids start complaining "Johny isnt sharing the ball bah bah bah...." and then they think well he got away with breaking the rules so can I.

So they start not sharing the toys. The guys start spitting on the girls. They tear the rules sign down.

With no rules sign its whatever anyone thinks is right in his own mind that goes whether or not its right or not as long as he "thinks" its okay he will do it.

Who makes rules in such a society as this? Its always the one with the most political power the one that is the biggest.

Without morals the powerful rules. What the "big kid" thinks is what you do because he can beat you up if you dont listen.

Without morals a society does what it wants and the powerful rule whether or not there "rules" are good or not its what they think and its what you are going to do.

He was pointing out that we need to follow the Bibles rules as Christians. I just thought I would tell this story.

There's a standard?


Uh -

"insert nipple in child's mouth".

How much easier does it get? This isn't rocket surgery, know what I mean?


Seriously, and I'm being very serious here -

what could be more soothing and natural and joyous than watching an essentially helpless infant being nurtured?

To whom,other than the Parents???

Sorry DSTM, I don't understand the question.

I've seen many infants being bottle fed - my own, neighbor's, relative's, stranger's - and the baby seemed so relaxed and content that the feeling touched many, if not all, who watched, even for a fleeting moment. I've seen some being breast fed, too, with what appeared to me to be the same result to most observers.

I'm not so naive as to not realize that for some folks it may be a little disconcerting, but that is their problem, not mine.

Not disconcerting in the least.Breast Feeding is a wonderful thing to for the Parents to witness.How it has anything to do with me, if I'm not the Parents,I fail to see. I wish them every happiness,but at the same time feel it's none of my business.
I don't wish to share unless specifically asked to. After all, to me some things are private.

*makes note not to expose my breasts to DSTM. At least, not in public.*

Not in Public, not your breasts, Anytime 'John Who' Thanks all the same.

For myself, it's only the full breast out in view that turns me red. Guess because as wonderful as it is for babies to be nursed by their loving mommies, I wonder if it's 'because I can' or because some mommies truly do think it's somehow better for baby than having a cloth discreetly draped over one's breast while doing it in a public place.

Don't know the answer to that one - but how I love to see a mommy feeding her wee one with a cloth loosely draped over her breast but not covering her babies little face.

Ok ladies and gents could I ask everyone to try and stop talking about breasts personally, Ex. so and so's breasts, and stay on topic?

Personally I think breast feeding is fine, healthy and natural. There is an element of peace and tranquility to watch a little on nursing.

Hi Pandy,To try and explain what I mean by proper. Firstly I have raised a family,with my children all Breast Fed. Got absolutely nothing against Breast Feeding,anywhere anytime,providing the mother does it Discretely.Discretely means to cover up your Breast and use a bit of modesty, like MaraM described.I have been sitting opposite Mothers Breast Feeding their babies in Trains,and at Church, including the functions, and didn't even realize it till the Mother Burped the Baby.This is what I mean by proper.
Also I have seen,and those who haven't are probably blind,the Mothers who want to put on a show and who are not modest in any way.They just want to draw attention to themselves, and to me are nothing more than Exhibitionists.They have got no self respect when they just flop out their Breast bare in full view of everybody,at the same time talking loud to the child of her intentions,thus making everyone's attention be drawn to her direction.This is what I call improper,when they are not discreet.

Nudity only receives attention from those who look, and fixate.

I think it is absolutely sad that we as people cannot reach a place in our minds where we understand that it is on us to give thought or not give thought. If a woman wants to walk around topless, fine. As long as she is not taping someone's eyes open and holding their face to her breasts.

Scenario: Guy is walking around in only a pair of spandex shorts and a tank top. His 'junk' is out there for all to see, pressed against the spandex. He is still clothed, but I am sure people could find something to ogle. But if a citizen went to the police for this, they would probably say, "Just don't look." How is the topless thing any different?

IMO, this is just like many other areas of social life that we just have not figured out. Don't want to be ogled naked? Don't go in public naked. Don't want to see naked people? Don't look.

CGM_ I appreciate what you are trying to say with your story about the kids on the playground. However, after Johnny leaves with the ball, the rest of the kids make the choice to break subseqent rules. Johnny cannot be blamed for their actions. Just so, this woman cannot be blamed for the actions of others in response to her exposed breasts.

My mother always used to tell me, "Life is 10% what happens to you, and 90% how you react to it."

So you're saying there would be more sexual crimes or less? I can't believe you don't see that aspect of it. It has nothing to do with women not being able to do what they want, etc. It actually has to do with protecting them. Just as I said before....I would much rather have laws saying men cannot expose themselves rather than women being able to. Its a matter of respect for women, in my opinion.

I believe my wife's body was meant for me, and mine for her. Why tempt men to look at other women? Why even give them the chance to, as you put it, "react".

I really wasn't taking a stance on the proliferation of crime in relation to public nudity. I think there are other factors in our society that contribute to crime in a much more poignant fashion (political correctness, drug prohibition, lack of consequence). I have been in numerous settings where boobies flop out, and I have yet to see it cause any crime.

These are adult women, I think it is a bit offensive to assume that I need to 'protect them' (strangers mind you). They can make their own choices. So then it becomes about what you want them to do or not do. We do not live in a Theocracy. Furthermore, as a matter of respect to women, I believe you show someone respect by recognizing their choices (not necessarily condoning them).

I am glad for you and your wife. Sincerely. But, not everyone looks at life the same way you do. Some wish to be tempted and best that temptation. Some appreciate the female form for it's beauty, and not pure sexual gratification. You are committed to your faith, and that's very cool. But don't assume that everyone has the same view on human sexuality as you do, or even that any other view is wrong for others.

Perhaps we should have our women wear face shrouds, because a gorgeous female face could send a man over the edge? Lust is in the heart of the beholder, not the object of the lust.

Do you respect a young girl's decision to throw a newborn baby in a dumpster? Or do you think she may not have made the right decision?

You are joining issues, and I don't appreciate that.

We were having a civil discussion about something as innocuous as breasts/public nudity.

Right, and you said that you think people that are adults can make their own decisions. I used an example and asked you if you think that's the case with that.

Lets say you make it fine for women to expose themselves in public. Do you think there are young women out there that already dress provocatively to get attention? Don't they get the attention? Now have them topless while this is going on.

Could you imagine the complaining about guys not listening now? (This parts a joke of course.) Seriously though...do you see that as a positive situation or a potentially harmful situation? What age do you make the limitation for? Maybe no age huh? Since young boys are able to expose their chests in public places....are you okay with seeing teenage and younger girls exposed? I certainly am not.

The fact is girls in all cultures knows or sorta knows what their bodies do to a guy when exposed.
We are no matter if they are out all the time or not going to think of a womans "private" areas as a hand or foot.

Guys are more visual than women. We find pleasure in even watching them walk and talk. Visual....



These femnists like the one who walked in new york topless said a guys chest and a womans chest is no different other than the womans can make milk. So why should they have to wear a shirt "its just a fatty protrusion".....

I think they are kidding themselves. A guys and a womans chest are different in many ways from the fact of a womans growing when she is sexually maturing so its linked to sexuality. Its like a natural reaction for a guy to be fascinated about them.