I was going to say something similar.

The Gospel of Mary, for example, didn't make it into the Big Book, or did it?

Apparently, some say it is, only it's attributed to John.

Interesting, eh?

Actually, JohnWho, I was thinking of Jesus himself.
John

yes and neither did Lazerus.

Yeah, I kind of thought that was where you were going.

In fact,

I almost answered you question:


Jesus, that's a tough one!

but thought better of it.

Uh, opps.

ROTFLMAO. JohnWho. At least there are some of us who can look at this topic with a side of humor.

Thanks BS.






It is difficult, sometimes, to not become overly serious and either defensive or offensive in some of these topics.

You're right - sometimes a good sense of humour is the only thing that makes life so great! and do free to ignore my lengthy post here and perhaps just trundle off and pour a coffee instead - huge gentle smile!

But here I go with my attempt to clarify a few things:

Perhaps I’m simply not reading words within our thread here with the correct interpretation – gentle sigh to myself .

Or perhaps there’s a wee chance that the words I read are simply words chosen when we humans are trying to express ourselves, rather than the writer’s actual intended thoughts?

For instance …

When I once said, “For many years I was a Christian”, it would seem so simple a sentence.

Yet, when one reads, “You say you were a Christian”, the mind pops right to the words ‘you say’, almost as if it’s unbelievable.

And when one reads, “I cannot judge whether or not you were” (a Christian), it does seem to imply a questioning of whether I have lied when making the statement. Or maybe, while I honestly thought I was a Christian, I might have been mistaken.

Hmmm. Yup, I’m going with the second option above and will simply assume it’s just the words used rather than the actual thoughts intended, jwinathome.

So I will attempt to answer your oft-asked pondering of why I “left” the Faith.

But while attempting to answer it, I ask simply that it is understood that I am not advocating others do the same thing. Just that it was simply the ‘right’ choice for me and I am at peace both with my choice and the life I now have.

Reasons:

I was born with a near insatiable curiosity. (I could stop right here and it would be near total and an accurate reason – grin!).

While nearly impossible to list all the ‘reasons’ – to say nothing of the fact I’d bore everyone to tears – the first separating began when being exposed constantly to good people who often seemed to follow their very human leader’s versions of who the Bible should be interpreted.

Even the leaders couldn’t decide which was a true version of what most things ‘really meant’ – some veered to the kind and tolerance attitude towards others – while even more seemed to feel that if one wasn’t a Christian, you were doomed. And I don’t mean in just the Biblical sense but in nearly every sense. Not a Christian? Then you can’t possibly know the difference between ‘right’ and ‘wrong’, ‘goodness’ and ‘evil’ - and on and on it went. Never a deluge, but always a steady drip, drip of intolerance and little attempt given to understand others whose lives were often just as ‘good’ if not ‘better’ than the Christians doing the judging.

Many other things came into play – some intensely personal – but it was many years between the first questioning growing in my heart until the final separation from the Faith. It was an agonizing decision but for me, it’s been the right – and only decision – I could have made and still remained true to who I really am.

To answer the other question, “Did you leave the Christian faith because Christians are against assisted suicide which atheism is in favor of?” – the answer is a simple ‘no’. In fact, at the time I didn’t know ‘assisted suicide’ even existed. (There's a thead about that somewhere here on SpeakEasy - and yup, I posted in it).

A wee side note:
Not all atheists agree with assisted suicide. In fact, I think of the word ‘atheist’ as not describing any ‘set’ group of people – it’s simply a person who does not have Faith.

I enjoyed your post Mara, and sincerely thank you for taking the time to share your experience. This may surprise some people, but I completely understand where you are coming from, and think highly of your decision to form standards, and stick to them. I hate that it was an agonizing decision to make, but I assure you many, many have made and most likely will make a similar decision. I personally have a very difficult time finding fault with the people that leave the faith (despite what I may type here), and perhaps there is no fault at all, but I do lean towards placing the blame upon these alleged "leaders" of the faith. I am sorry that you had to endure pain and frustration, but I see that you are most likely happy and content, after all you said you were. Again, thank you for sharing such a personal aspect of your life. (Disclaimer...I am being genuine in my post.)


Oh, and Drive-By John......

Jesus, that's a tough one!

but thought better of it.

Uh, opps.

I chuckled when I saw your response. I agree that there is nothing wrong with humor.

What would you think if you died and went to hell mara? I know you must have read about and heard about hell if you went to church and read the Bible.
I just wonder if you ever think of that?

You can't judge her. God is the final judge and he'll determine what He thinks was really right. Just because fell man thinks an activity is wrong doesn't mean God believes that.

Will try to answer this as honestly as possible simply because I know you ask in all sincerity. I just hope I don't muff it badly.

When I was a kid I honestly believed that one day - when I grew up - I would have "lovely chestnut brown hair" (I was a big dreamer, even back then . And I grew up and still had the pesky red hair. My belief ended. Ergo - chestnut hair in my future was not a reality. It did not exist.

And I guess, although I know I'm saying this badly, that's sort of how I felt about 'hell'. I once believed in it. And then didn't. It did not/does not exist (for me). So I never think about nor fear it.

But (and feel free to chip in here and start posting - anyone - someone - I feel like I'm floundering and I'm a horrible swimmer - eek!) ...

I think perhaps you are asking if, one day, I find I am wrong and hell does exist?

If that was the case, I guess there would only be a couple things that could happen:

1. God would have a great sense of humour and would realize that, although far from perfect, I and others like me have simply done our very best while walking on this earth.

2. God could be lacking in a sense of humour and compassion and understanding. If this was the case, guess I'd be 'doomed'. But that said, any God that would be willing to limit Heaven to only Christians first, Born-Again Christians next (even if they've hacked their little children to death with an axe) ... and all others off to hell and damnation we go ... then I still know I made the right decision. For surely I do not wish to spend 'eternity' with a God I cannot worship nor respect.

- - -
Far more than my own views, I'm honestly interested in how other members feel about the fear of 'Hell'.

I whole heartily agree with you. I'm sure God judges you based on your actions more than what you say, remember your actions speak louder than words. Do you really think God will ban you to a place you don't believe in? Which brings in my point of my other topic about religion. If one doesn't believe in said place does that mean you will ever go there? Apparently not, since in the Jewish faith there is no Hell. Even though (if I remember) correctly they believe in the same God as Christians.

And since there are several denominations of Christianity, who is to say which one is right? Presbyterian supposedly support gays. Does that mean God thinks it's wrong? Source


Great comparison of Christian denominations: Source

... well what would you think if you died and went to hell, cgm? i truly don't mean that with any personal bias or malicious intent; i am just surprised that someone would seriously ask that question.

're Fear of Hell'

Well, shuffling off this mortal coil is getting closer every day and I, for one, never waste a moment worrying about ifs and maybes.
Guess we will all find out soon enough who is right or wrong, but for now I simply do not care.

Cheers

Like rowal5555 I really don't care about my eternal life to the point where I'm not going to live my life and I'll just do what I'm instructed to do. I'll live a boring life worrying every second of my life "am I going to hell?" As long as I accept God and Jesus. Jesus would therefore forgive me of my sins. If it's that simple where is there a hell? Just to scare you into the religion?

I was not judging her. The Bible says if you do not ask Jesus to forgive you of your sins and believe in him you go to hell so I just asked her if she ever thought about hell.



I am not going to quote the whole thing. You said limit. Salvation is a free gift from Jesus, those who reject get rejected(sent to hell). Therefore it would be you who sent yourself to hell. All you have to do is ask Jesus to forgive your sins and believe in him. Then focus on him and follow what the Bible says.

You mentioned why you do not believe in God above. It seems to me you were worried about what others said? As humans we are not perfect thats why we need to focus on Jesus and ask him to help us understand the Bible and such. He will help us. I think we need to focus on hims and read the Bible and understand what God wants us to do. You talk about what the people did in church. What does the Bible say about what they were doing?

I dont know all of what the people were doing but just because we are Christians does not mean we are perfect.

I dont think the Bible can be any clearer or easier to understand when it talks about how to be saved and what happens when you do not get saved.

some people don't run their lives according to the bible.

Yano

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast." (NIV) Ephesians 2:8-9



I dont think you are reading and understanding my posts to mara. She said it was the right choice for her to not be a Christian anymore. I asked what would she think if she went to hell because she did not believe in Jesus.



13"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

if someone does not have any belief in the bible, do you honestly expect this to mean anything to them?

Therefore if God believes in me for asking Him to forgive me (or believing in Him, essentially), I'll be saved... it's the same thing.

I was referring to you saying God judges us by our actions. Sorry for not being clear.

Well put, Ambellina, as someone with little or no religious background would find quotes from the Bible either/or meaningless or just 'senseless'. Impossible to honestly 'relate to'.

For myself, I'm right up there with Rowal and Yano - will simply have to take my chances.

With respect, I do hope you will answer Ambellina's question, CGM. Not to put you 'on the spot' but rather to understand. Not a quote from the Bible, but rather how you - as a person - would feel.

- - - - -

Just pondering ...

When I was a kid ( and even now, I must admit) I sometimes wondered if there was a God I hadn't heard about.

A God that did not put his ego as the one and only thing that mattered 'in the end'.

A God that did not care if we 'bow down to him', who didn't care if we worshiped him (ego) or begged his forgiveness/approval (ego) - a God who simply was happy as a clam that 'his people' did the very best they could and the one and only entrance exam to 'heaven' was that and only that.

Please, please - again, 'cast no stones' - my ponderings are just that, my thoughts, and have no validity in anyone's religious views and in absolutely no way are my thoughts here intended to be a slap in the face to anyone at all. I have a quirky nature, I know, but often wondered if the criteria for getting to 'Heaven' were a tad different, people may spend a lot more of their time being happy, no arguments could occur over which Faith (or which denomination of a specific Faith) is right and the other wrong. Gentle sigh.

In the Bible There are 3 judgments of the human race.

1) when all who have placed their faith in Jesus are raptured (i.e. taken to heaven off of the earth). even though they are saved an will get into heaven they must still give an accounting of what they did with the time given them on the earth by God.

2) at the end of the Tribulation but right before the Millennial reign of Jesus, Jesus will separate the people that came to faith in him during the Tribulation and survived it from the people who survived the Tribulation but chose to follow the Antichrist. Those who follow the Antichrist will be put into hell (i.e. the lake of fire) where they chose to go because they followed the Antichrist. The believers that survived the Tribulation will still have to give an accounting for the life they lead on the earth.

3)Lastly we have what is referred to as the "Great White Throne" judgment (the name comes from the statement in revelation that says that God was seated on a great white(i.e. color) throne). this is the time when all those that have died, both before Christ and those who died without ever hearing about Jesus are judged according to their deeds in life. In this judgment, anyone who's name is not in the Book of Life will be put into hell.

Let me make this point here. God does send people to hell. Hell is a real place and it is a place that makes every horror and torture, and every pain that humanity has ever thought of pale in comparison to it. I also want to stress that God does not want to send people to hell. They chose, by their own actions, to go there. God is perfect in His judgments. Sin must be punished. He is also perfect mercy. This mercy is shown in that while we are sinners and could never fully attone for our sins. He came to this world in human form (i.e. Jesus) and paid the price for our sins through His death on the cross. the only conditions he placed on this gift are 4 things.

1) Confess your sins to God (not to man).
2) Place your faith in Jesus (believe that Jesus is Lord and that he died on the cross for your sins and rose again on the third day).
3) Love everyone as Jesus loves you.
4) to go and share the Gospel to all of the earth.

God didn't have to do this. He could have wiped out every last human on the planet and started over if He chose to. He almost did this in Noah's day but at least Noah was found to be faithful to God so he and his family were spared and the human race was given another chance. Look at what we have done with the second chance. there have been times when humanity has done well, but for the most part we are backsliding to the way we were in the days of Noah.

1 Then the people began to multiply on the earth, and daughters were born to them. 2 The sons of God saw the beautiful women[a] and took any they wanted as their wives. 3 Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not put up with humans for such a long time, for they are only mortal flesh. In the future, their normal lifespan will be no more than 120 years.”

4 In those days, and for some time after, giant Nephilites lived on the earth, for whenever the sons of God had intercourse with women, they gave birth to children who became the heroes and famous warriors of ancient times.

[b]5 The Lord observed the extent of human wickedness on the earth, and he saw that everything they thought or imagined was consistently and totally evil. 6 So the Lord was sorry he had ever made them and put them on the earth. It broke his heart. 7 And the Lord said, “I will wipe this human race I have created from the face of the earth. Yes, and I will destroy every living thing—all the people, the large animals, the small animals that scurry along the ground, and even the birds of the sky. I am sorry I ever made them.” 8 But Noah found favor with the Lord.

According to Jesus himself, before the end times come the earth will be like it was in Noah's day. This is exactly the way our culture is headed right now. It is almost impossible to avoid the blatant sexuality that is in most of the media and pop culture of this planet. Murder corruption and greed are on the rise, not decreasing. This is one of the reasons that me and other's like me are taking as strong a stance on our faith as we are. Right now we have a choice to make. To follow Jesus or to turn your back on him and, by rejecting him, that he gave his life for nothing. I have made my choice. I cannot and will not turn my back on him, even if it meant my death. I ask people that read this post to make a choice. You don't need to tell me what your choice is. That is between you and God, but don't take too long to make that choice. We never know how much time on this earth God has given to us, and eventually, the choice will one day be taken away. Jesus is at the door to your hart and is knocking. please make your choice before it becomes too late and your are left behind.

I would like to share this song with all of you, my friends.
Marlene Oneill: Left Behind


Seafox14

So as long as I die before " the end of time," I won't have to worry about going through the three step process.

Btw thank you for the verse cgm.

A God that did not put his ego as the one and only thing that mattered 'in the end'. A God that did not care if we 'bow down to him', who didn't care if we worshiped him (ego) or begged his forgiveness/approval (ego) - a God who simply was happy as a clam that 'his people' did the very best they could and the one and only entrance exam to 'heaven' was that and only that.

The above described the God I know and love deeply.
a God who simply was happy as a clam that 'his people' did the very best they could and the one and only entrance exam to 'heaven' was that and only that
Let me illustrate it this way....If you have celebrated Christmas. Did you ever have a Christmas tree with gifts under it? Remember how beautiful they were to look at and imagine what was inside the box? Remember the anticipation you felt as the day drew closer to when you would get to open it? Imagine there is one big, beautiful present under the tree. We will call this present, the gift of salvation. It was offered freely to anyone that simply wishes to unwrap the gift. It is completely unmerited, and very easy to open.

Jesus offered Himself freely, and He was born as man here on earth. In other words, we can relate to Him in that He felt emotion and pain, and was even tempted. He wanted, and wants to be loved, just as you and I do. He taught peace and love to His disciples, explained to them that they were not servants but friends. He even explained that He came to serve humanity. None of those qualities sound egotistical or selfish to me. He healed many, He went to the sick, poor, and lowly. He had/has great compassion for the poor, and taught His disciples to do likewise. He changed their lives and hearts. His words were profound within the context of the day, and even today they still are. He never shamed anybody, even knowing all the sins that a person committed, He never shamed them, but selflessly loved them and changed the way they thought.

And to those that view judgment as a bad thing and are offended by it....know this....God says explicitly that "Mercy TRIUMPHS over judgment." Jesus offers a gift to anyone willing to receive it. In the Bible, Grace is defined and illustrated. Grace transcends the realm of time. The Bible makes it clear that God's grace is sufficient.

Jesus said that greater love hath no man than to lay down his life for another. That is the most selfless act possible. He did just that, and asks us to do the same. It is a concept that has been lost. Whatever debates I get into or no matter how abrasive I may be in text on this forum, that truth resides deep within my heart, instilled by Jesus, and I would in an instant lay down my life for a good cause. Whether the person is muslim, christian, atheist, jewish, whatever. Not to be a hero or martyr, but simply because it is the right thing to do.


P.S. Hell was not made for man, but for the fallen angels.

According to the Bible if you believe and have asked Jesus to forgive you of your sins you are not going to hell.

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved." — "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." (Romans 10:9-10)

So...



If the Lord is omniscient (I believe it is a Christian tenet that God is Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Benevolent), then before he ever created Man, he knew Man would be evil. Thus, God is responsible for loosing evil upon the Earth. For, if God is outside of time, then He would have seen these eventualities.

Thus, this begs the question, why?

If we are so totally evil, why would we entertain the thought that God even wants us around for eternity.


Also, why would the Lord have wasted all that time to save the Isrealites, only to have them barred from eternal life? I mean, Jews don't believe in Jesus as the Son of God, so by this rationale, they are forever excluded from Heaven (or eternal life).




And CGM, there are other religions out there that teach of hell. What would you think if you died and went to hell? Because you gave your life to Christianity, however, the real religion was... Mormonism.


IMO, the after-life has to be based on what you do here, on this Earth. Sure, for some with a certain faith, the Bible is all that is necessary to guide one's life. But some people can't get past the inconsistencies within, or the need to interpret some of it in parables and some of it literally. There are numerous other great works that attempt to steer the life-actions of Man. But the fact remains that there is some ambiguity within all great works of Man, and if you believe in a Creator, then they are all inspired by God, as one would concede that they are made by that Creator.

So, it would seem a bit unjust to determine the fate of a person's everlasting soul on their ability to muddle through all the confusion that they themselves are a part of.

Guess we'll all just have to wait and see huh?

In the meantime, enjoy life.

"Muslim taxi conversions," by Paul Anderson in the Herald Sun:

TAXI authorities have condemned an Islamic recruiting drive by some of Melbourne's Muslim cabbies using propaganda-style DVDs featuring radical preacher Sheik Khalid Yasin.

Three DVDs, two featuring Sheik Yasin, have been handed to the Herald Sun by an unwitting cab driver after a night trip.

The pro-Islamic discs were handed over in what appeared to be a sales pitch.

A controversial cleric, Sheik Yasin's past outspoken visits to Australia have concerned security agencies and the Federal Government.

The DVDs given to the Herald Sun, with titles including Death . . . Your Time Is Up! and What Do You Really Know About Islam? feature Sheik Yasin preaching.

Meanwhile, the Victorian Taxi Directorate wants to stop this in order to protect...the cabbies:

The Victorian Taxi Directorate and police sources have condemned the practice of cabbies handing religious material to passengers.

It contravenes regulations and police say it could lead to violence against cabbies.

"The directorate is concerned with any driver conduct which may cause offence to the public," a VTD spokesman said in a statement.

"The VTD will investigate all complaints lodged through our feedback and complaints service, and strongly encourages passengers to lodge complaints when they are unhappy or concerned with the service they have received."

Two of the three discs given to the Herald Sun name Sheik Yasin as executive director of the Islamic Teaching Institute, dedicated to "conveying the message".

"In the past 10 years, the ITI has delivered more than 5000 persons to Islam and an additional 1476 since the September 11 attacks," the DVDs say.

"Sheik Yasin delivered a lecture in Saudi Arabia in 1994, which resulted in 43 persons accepting Islam on that very night."

In one of the DVDs, Sheik Yasin says: "Let me for a moment introduce you to death so you know his name, know his characteristics.

"You will feel him. You will smell him. You will taste him. You will touch him."

Tu-quoque Alert:

In another, the Malcolm X-inspired preacher says: "Many of you have heard or you've been told that Muslims are terrorists, fanatics, heretics, extremists, murderers and hostage takers.

"In some cases that is true . . . but let us be objective.

"Have not Jews and Christians also done those things, and are they not also doing those things? Yes, they are."...

jwinathome, the same complaints would have most likely been filed if the cabbies had been Christians and been passing out tracts or dvd urging the person watching to become Christian.

You have already made you point.

Seafox14

This has nothing to do with Christians seafox...whats your point?

I have heard many conversion stories, and read many tactics for "preaching to" people...and none of them have ever included...

"Let me for a moment introduce you to death so you know his name, know his characteristics.
"You will feel him. You will smell him. You will taste him. You will touch him."

Since this is a miscellaneous religious thread, thought I’d mention ‘Scientology’.

It’s apparently recognized as being ‘squarely with the tradition of the world’s major religions’ and is recognized as a religion in the United States, Canada, Australia and other countries – their ministers are officially recognized as ‘ministers of religion’ and it’s churches are exempt from taxes.

Others apparently feel it’s a ‘dangerous mind-bending cult’.

Just wondering if you think of it as a religion that should continue being exempt from taxes or not a religion at all, no matter what the governments say?

Good Question 'MaraM' Wondering myself, what is the Criteria required for a new Religious Order to be Tax Exempt?
Any Links would be appreciated as I find this interesting. Maybe you need a certain No of followers,I don't really Know.

Hi DSTM ... I could be wrong but I think it's based on governments feeling a group of people 'worshiping a higher being' and their money being all used for 'charity'.

If what I've been reading is true about this particular religion they should have a vast, vast amount of money to give away to charity!

Scientology is weird. All this money goes in and almost nothing comes out (new churches, keeping L. Ron Hubbard books from being burned as garbage). i always thought that religions did something good (soup kitchens, disaster relief, ect) to encourage "converts" (ie spend money to make money) to their faith.

See DIANETICS.

Frankly myself, I think its ridiculous for any church to accept handouts from the government.

For answers on the tax part....See the "Frequently Asked Questions About Scientology"

Here is a small excerpt....

The battle with the Internal Revenue Service was finally and favorably resolved on October 1, 1993. On that day, the IRS issued letters recognizing the Church of Scientology International and its related churches and organizations �all 150 of them �as tax-exempt under section 501©(3) of the Internal Revenue Code.

Financial fraud: Early in the church Hubbard has money siphoned secretly to he and his family...it may have been legal (not sure) but completely unethical.

• Founding Church of Scientology v. The United States, US Court of Claims
• Church of Scientology of California v. Commissioner. (1984)
• Church of Scientology v. Commissioner of Internal Revenue (1987)
• Wollersheim v. CSC (1988)
• COST (Church of Spiritual Technology) v. U.S. (1989)

Described by British sociologist as: "...it is an "enrolment economy" dependent on a constant flow of new members, whom it rapidly turns into "deployable agents" tasked with further recruitment. "

Some interesting "recruiting" methods...(Past, present)

• "Personality Test" or Oxford Capacity Analysis (OCA)
• "Placing adverts for "personal counselling" of troubled individuals, making no mention of Scientology, the intention being to steer them into "weekly group processing units"
• Advertising for polio victims to contact a "research foundation investigating polio" again, no mention of Scientology
• Scouring the newspapers to find accident victims to contact, whereupon the Scientology recruiter would "represent himself to the person or the person's family as a minister whose compassion was compelled by the newspaper story concerning the person."

(Source:L. Ron Hubbard, "Three methods of dissemination", Professional Auditor's Bulletin, no. 73 (28 February 1956)

1972 Hubbard revised the governing policy of Scientology. In a statement which is still official Scientology policy today, he listed the twelve key points of Scientology's financial affairs:

• MAKE MONEY
• Buy more money made with allocations for expense (bean theory).
• Do not commit expense beyond future ability to pay.
• Don't ever borrow.
• Know different types of orgs and what they do.
• Understand money flow lines not only in an org but org to org as customers flow upward.
• Understand EXCHANGE of valuables or service for money (P/L Exec Series 3 and 4).
• Know the correct money pools for any given activity.
• Police all lines constantly.
• MAKE MONEY.
• MAKE MORE MONEY.
• MAKE OTHER PEOPLE PRODUCE SO AS TO MAKE MONEY

A lot of people say the phrase..."Follow the money." Its easy to do so with the church of scientology, and see where the heart of the church lay. Its very hard to find how much they give in charitable contributions, because its next to nothing. Apparently massive salaries for leaders coincidentally went away when L. hubbard died.

Scientology - a "religion" based on a Science Fiction author's writings.


That's good enough for me, where do I sign up?

Sounds interesting. Scientology seems to have real Motive,Direction and Purpose.$$$$$

Yes, it seems scary. And, for myself, that's why I find it hard to fathom so many things about this 'religion' ... that anyone would believe in it (and Ron Hubbard), that our government recognises it as 'religion' as the charity, if any, seems to be at the bottom of it's goals ... and that they wouldn't object to both the physical harm apparently often done but even sadder, the mental harm.

you forget one thing Jwinathome



You obviously are setting out to try and make all Muslims look bad, most of your posts are aimed at how Islam is "Fundamentally wrong." I may not agree with everything about your religion but I just don't say "Ohh your religion is wrong, look you like to kill people." The mods obviously haven't caught this, and this is the second time I have been really mad because of anti-Islamic content, so I will ask you to tone it down myself. Think what you will but atleast smile in public.

Ussr1943, may I ask something if it's not too personal? Do you live in a community where you and your family are welcomed or in one where, since '911' people are 'standoffish'?

I ask because Canada is a pretty laid back place but a couple neighbours of ours simply tell everyone they are "from Persia" and said it took a very long time before they felt comfortable around people out of worry that they may be disliked because of where they are from and the religion they practice.

well,
truthfully I have seen both sides of this. I have met people who are fine with others beliefs, and yet I have met people extreamly intollerant of others. Personally My family doesn't believe my beliefs, but we certainly tolerate each other and try not to let religions get in the way. It really is dependent upon the community your in, for example in elk rapids there is a Muslim majority while where I live there isn't. But like I said I have met both sides and I would say It's 50-50, if not most people already when you tell them your belief have thieir mind made up about your character. I'm just sick of these people, it just causes great pain in my heart that people would judge you, or group you with extreamists, and I know this is the same for many religions, and because Islam is in the news constantly because terrorists claim they are working in the name of god I think people should go out of their way to try and learn a little about the belif before making assumptions. You may not like Islam, or Christianity, Judiasim, Buhddism, or what have you, but you should at-least treat other humans with respect and give them a chance to show their true character.

Well said and thank you for sharing, ussr1943. Life would be a lovely place indeed if we had a world that kind and tolerant - but with each of us making a small step in that direction we just might do it yet!

ussr...I didn't miss anything...I posted what the news story said. I don't add adjectives. I don't take things away. I don't feel there is anything to "tone down"...There is no reason for you to get so upset. My posting have nothing to do with intolerance, nor is it a smear campaign against islam. islam has had a chance to show its character. And again, I have studied islam and formulated my opinion. If you cannot handle what is being posted, I once again ask that you either PM the mods, or of course not frequenting the thread may help you not get upset. Of course, if you want to add to the debate/conversation using examples/opinions/whatever....by all means, do so.



p.s...I seem to remember one of your posts including the phrase, "or there will be trouble.." I find that to be contradicting to the tolerance and respect that you demand from the rest of us.

Jihad on Canada television:

"TORONTO - VisionTV says it will monitor one of its shows more closely after it broadcast a lecture by an Islamic preacher who said scripture requires Muslims to either fight jihad or finance it....n the hour-long talk, Israr Ahmad said, "Jihad in the way of Allah, for the cause of Allah, can be pursued either with your financial resources or your bodily strength when you go to fight the enemy in the battlefield...."So jihad, the highest form, is fighting in the cause of Allah." ..."Israr Ahmad is widely known for his hateful words and vilification of Jews," said Canadian Jewish Congress spokesman Bernie Farber. "We are deeply concerned that Vision would give this individual the imprimatur of Vision's credibility. It was a mistake in judgment and ought to concern all of us."...VisionTV's code of ethics forbids the broadcast of programs that glorify or incite violence or "have the effect of provoking or abetting domestic or international religious or political conflicts."...The broadcaster acknowledged that the show, Dil Dil Pakistan, had talked about jihad and fighting but said it did not contravene the station's policies against incitement because the comments were made in a historical context. But it said the show would be monitored more closely."

(Source)

Is this the acceptance and tolerance that is being referred to? Would the tolerance of various views (including the above) exercised by this TV station be considered good?

Since this thread is about 'religious tolerance', at least in a way ...

Some seem to have a 'bee in the bonnet' about certain religions. And I suspect the feeling is reciprocated.

Still can't help wondering if suddenly magic happened and there were no religions in the world, if peace couldn't be finally achieved. Gentle sigh.

Are you referring to this bee?

Jihad Bee replaces Terror Mouse,
vows revenge on enemies of Allah� -
the Jews

Hamas, Al-Aqsa television station recruited a new children's character to continue� the legacy of its star martyr, Farfur, the Mickey Mouse lookalike who was beaten to death by an Israeli on the previous program.

The new character on the children's show Tomorrow's Pioneers, a bee named Nahool, tells the hostess he is Farfur's cousin and that he wishes to "continue the path of Farfur" "the path of martyrdom", "the path of the Jihad warriors" and in his name we shall take revenge upon the enemies of Allah, the murderers of the prophets...� The expression "Murderers of the prophets" is an Islamic expression used by the PA religious leaders to refer to Jews. Defining the Jews as the enemies of God is common in PA religious broadcasting.

There was worldwide outrage after PMW reported the existence of Farfur and his hateful messages in May. The New York Daily News dubbed the character "Terror Mouse"� while Walt Disney's daughter Diane described it as "pure evil."

Without apparent regard for the sensitivities of their child viewers, the show's creators killed off the character in a particularly violent way that allowed them to continue the show's rabidly anti-Israel messages.

(Source) - Video

Take one incredibly varied and beautiful world ... add millions of humans with no religion to argue and fight over. No 'right', no 'wrong' religious beliefs. If not total peace, surely the world would be a great deal more peaceful place that it has been and is.

mmmkay.

So there would still be "right" and "wrong" or not?

Is everyone free to do whatever they wish in your fantastic, hypothetical?