I for one do not believe in pre-destination, I do, however, believe that God has granted us free will. If indeed our lives are already planned out for us then in every detail there would obviously be no need for any type of free will.
I for instance have a hard time accepting the fact that a neihbor backs out of his drive and doesn't see the toddler from next door thereby running over him and killing him. Did God mean for this to happen and cause the driver to suffer for the rest of his/her life for what was clearly an accident or for the childs parents to lose their little one and they too will suffer for the rest of their lives from this lose and also from the fact that they could blame themselves for not watching the child closer. I believe that not all things that happen on this earth are of God, there is evil in this world trying everyday to tempt those who believe in God and his Son Jesus Christ away to a darker existence. I also feel that we are free to make our own decisions as to what paths we follow in life for the better or the worse. As to having free will, what good is it that one should come to know God because it was pre-destined that they do so or are forced into this belief. How well would God accept the love and praise of those forced to do so rather than those who come to him willingly and in faith? Do we respect someone because we are forced to or because we chose to? If forced then our respect is little more than the dust under our feet but if you respect someone because you chose to then the praise that is given is well deserved and to be appreciated. IMHO

I thank you also for the link jwinathome. It is truly uplifting to learn of those who give so much of themselves.

Thank you for your kind and understanding words, Blue and Gold .

Re: "Say your child believes in God, will you disagree with that basic belief, or not? If not, do you hold either consciously, or subconsciously the thought that the child is only believing in God to help themselves deal with the world that surrounds them?".

No, I don't mind answering the question. For me, there was never any problem 'either way. The one girl who strongly and firmly has a solid belief system in her God is doing something and believing something that is right for her.

Perhaps I can explain it an easier way as I was being sincere when I mentioned earlier that some may find my 'belief system/moral code' a tad difficult to comprehend.

If we had not exposed all our girls to various Faiths, I feel we, as parents, would have been doing them a disservice. How can a child or an adult learn to decide for themselves if we only teach or expose them to our own limited viewpoints.

When one of our girls decided she believed and was a Christian, we applauded her and as I say earlier, did everything within our power to ensure she received as much study as she wished under a Paster/Minister of any domination she wished. Because it's right for her, makes it necessary for us to honestly support her both as a child with her Faith and now as a wife and mother and children of her own.

Do I disagree with the basic 'belief' of God? For myself, yes. For our daughter that believes, no I don't disagree. God is very real to her and believing in Him brings her contentment, peace and serenity. Just as my not believing brings me contentment, peace and serentiy. We must all find our way through our lives and what is 'right' for one may not be 'right' for the other.

But our girl who is a Christian and our ones who have chosen not to be - woe to any of them that choose to willingly do harm to others either mentally or physically. 'Mother always knows' and I haven't lost that unique 'look' that mothers have that sends kids of any age 'running for cover'!

Cowsgonemadd, I've chosen to answer your question here separately, as it falls into a bit of a different catagory than my previous post.

Re: "Yes I believe in witches. The Bible mentions them.

Deuteronomy 18:10-12 says, “Let no one be found among you who… practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells…Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD...”



I've sat here for a few minutes trying to think of a way to properly word this - the last thing I want to do is 'pick' at your Faith that is so dear to you, so please bear with me as I muddle my way through this.

First, thanks for supplying the link and yes, I have read the article thoroughly. And honestly, if I was reading this and knew nothing about Wicca, I may take the article at face value as well.

Perhaps we can first decide what, in our own minds, constitutes a 'witch'?

And I don't ask these questions to trap you in any way and especially not to offend you, CGM, but ask them with respect in the hopes that perhaps both side of the 'coin' can be seen by both of us and others reading and particpating int his topic.

When a Missionary shares that a man grew both arms and legs while being prayed over, in most religions, this would perhaps be viewed as a 'miracle'?
But if a person who was not a Missionary or person belonging to a 'fundamental' religion used 'witchcraft' to make something as good and pure as this to happen, would it then be viewed as a 'miracle' or 'witchcraft' and an evil thing that is "detestable"?

Wicca is a recognised religion, even though I do understand why that statement alone must upset people. But in return for my reading the article at the link you provided, CGM, would you please do me the same courtesy to pehaps read a site or two that is by and of Wicca? No sacrifices of blood, animal or human, is made. No 'devil' is worshiped (or, for that matter, believed to exist). Their belief is partly that they and they alone are responsible for the good or bad they do, every moment of every day of their entire lives.

I read enough on that site I linked to. I do NOT visit sites about the cult/witchcraft.



Deuteronomy 18:10-12 says, “Let no one be found among you who… practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells…Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD...” Wicca witchcraft is a sin and God hates it. Why? Because it is an attempt to cut off our dependence on God and get answers apart from Him.

To cut it down to the source "Do not do magic". Now correct me if I'm wrong but Jesus did these things raised the dead, healed the sick, saw the future ("....before the cock crows three times you will have denied my name thrice....") and so did his followers. What is the line between miracles and magic? is it because it is done in the name of the God any certain person believes in or are miracles licensed to Christian an Jewish faiths only?


Currently selling tickets for my Cruise Ship to Hell. Cross the River Styx while enjoying a concert from Styx. LOL

Sorry if this offends, but I think that is very narrow minded of you CGM.

---------------------

This I dont mind if anyone gets offended, as they are my views/rant on religion.

Whats with all the bible thumpers (of all religions, not just christi(ns)anity).

Why does everyone(read religious fruitcakes) quote selected paragraphs from their holy books to make a point, or answer a question. Do you people know the bible chapter, verse and paragraph, or do you keep a handy "paragraph for every occasion" guide of the bible.

Why dont you hardcore religious fanatics realise that you have been brainwashed into accepting your particular brand of the occult is the only religion, and all others must be false. Maybe you dont realise that your religious fanatics or that you have been brainwashed.

If I took the time, which I wont, all of the holy books probably contain conflicting passages/stories etc.

Why are there so many different christian faiths? One of them must be right, and all the others must be wrong!

I'm not even going to get started on birth control and abortion.

Lets not kid ourselves, religion is nothing but a bussiness, with big money involved.

---------------------

I was raised a Catholic, I used to goto church every Sunday until I was old enough to be given the choice to stop going, which I did straight away.

In my church there was no fire and brimstone, to me all it meant was a waste of 2 hours of my Sunday. I never felt connected to god in anyway, shape or form. There was no loss or emptyness when I stopped going. On the plus side I then had a whole Sunday to myself, and didnt have to confine my activities so that I had to break my day up around going to church.

While I appear to uphold some christian behaviour, this is nothing more than obeying the law of the land, or just good old fashioned humanity.

Rant over.

Why is it a problem visiting sites about Witchcraft? CGM3 Doesn't mean you have to believe in Witchcraft.
Personally,I am fascinated reading about our Ancestors,what they worshiped, their Gods, sacrifices and customs.

[quote name='bilko' date='Jul 13 2007, 12:50 AM' post='568149'

Wow, and people got upset with me. lol.

My last encounter with a witch...(there have been many.)

This happened to me last year, a few weeks after I got married.

My wife and I went to Taco Bell after I got home from work one evening to get dinner. It was pretty late, and there was one family sitting down, my wife and I, and one older lady in the back corner sitting by herself. She looked lonely and distraught. Anyway, my wife and I got our food, went and sat down, about 3 tables away from the woman. We were eating, and she asked what my name was. I said "Jonathan"....and she said...."my name is high goddess armella." Immediately I knew what I was dealing with, having many 'encounters' in the past. She said some other things, and I heard her say "I'm hungry." I asked her what she would like to eat, she told me, and I went and bought her some food and brought it to her. She did not say thank you or anything like that, she actually looked at me and said, as I placed the food in front of her...."Curse be upon you and the food you are eating." I looked her straight in the eye and said....."Would you like anything else?" She did not respond, but started to eat.

I went and sat back down to finish my dinner with my wife. The lady kept saying things to me, staring at me the entire time. She would say things like, "your family is cursed", "death be upon your children", "i am a high goddess that rules you". She was not kidding with any of this, she was very serious. I listened to what she said, and simply turned to her and gently said..."I serve a Higher power."

Long story short....eventually she grew very angry and walked out the front door....she did not leave though, she waited for me. I saw her outside standing at my car...so I told my wife to wait inside. I went out and stood in front of her....she said to me "bow before me", to which I replied "I bow to no man, but Jesus." She stepped away from the car and walked away while flicking and cursing me. My wife and I got in the car and drove away.

All this to say, my family isn't cursed, I didn't get sick from the food, and my son is 2 and a half months old. Where is the power/magic?

One of my muslim friends sent me this in an email last night....



“Islam is not a normal religion like the other religions in the world and Muslim nations are not like normal nations. Muslim nations are very special because they have a command from Allah to rule the entire world and to be over every nation in the world.”

"Islam wishes to destroy all States and Governments anywhere on the face of the earth which are opposed to the ideology and programme of Islam regardless of the country or the Nation which rules it. The purpose of Islam is to set up a State on the basis of its own ideology and programme, regardless of which Nation assumes the role of the standard bearer of Islam or the rule of which nation is undermined in the process of the establishment of an ideological Islamic State."

“Islam is a revolutionary faith that comes to destroy any government made by man. Islam doesn’t look for a nation to be in a better condition than another nation. Islam doesn’t care about the land or who owns the land. The goal of Islam is to rule the entire world and submit all of mankind to the faith of Islam. Any nation or power that gets in the way of that goal, Islam will fight and destroy. In order to fulfill that goal, Islam can use every power available every way it can be used to bring worldwide revolution. This is Jihad.”

---Sayeed Abdul A'la Maududi, ‘Jihad in Islam’

Resistance is futile.

You will be assimilated.

Tolerance:

Laws in effect during the Andalusian Caliphate. (as told by an Imam, these applied to "non-muslims")

“They may practice their religion within the privacy of their homes; They may not build any new churches or synagogues, etc; They may not celebrate any religious festivals in public; They may not display in public any item having particular religious pupport, e.g. bible, cross, statue etc; They may not ring the church bell, nor read their religious books so loud that it is audible in public.”

Deuteronomy 18:10-12 says, Let no one be found among you who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells..."

Now where does this put Jesus? I can remember he cast out demons and in so doing, put the demons into a herd of animals which drove them mad and they jumped off a cliff.

To what extent did Jesus accept Jewish law, and in what sense did he supplant it?
Regards,
John

For Jesus, it was not a matter of "accepting" or "supplanting" Jewish law. The Bible says Jesus fulfilled the law.

I don't care. Witchcraft is of the devil, I need to know nothing more about it. I have seen cult videos at my church and heard stories of witches
from Christian people. KJV: Matthew 7:14 "Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."



This isnt about ancestors witches are alive today.

don't you think you should understand something a bit more before you decide to hate it?

don't you think you should understand something a bit more before you decide to hate it? - ambellina.....

You have a good point ambellina....however, I personally know as much as I care to know about witchcraft, and I hate it. (Please note, I hate witchcraft, not people that hold the belief.)

I will admit, it was indeed a fascinating study, and I learned a lot, but I am a biased, pig-headed Christian, so I hated it, even after understanding it.

(Run-ons are great!)

then at least there was some effort on your part to have a greater understanding of something, even if it was something that you dislike without trying to sound too rude, i don't think the same goes for cgm3.

For some people....and I am definitely not saying this is the case for CGM....

they cannot stomach looking through this junk. The massive amount of information that is available. We have teachers of various things, and rely on them to do the research etc, and share what they've learned. Maybe in CGM's case, he has been told by people that did research and tried to understand it. I was that way in Math in high school. I wasn't that great at it, didn't care to try and understand it, but I trusted that the teacher had done his work and could relay what I needed to know in order to make a decision on whether I hated math or not. lol.

even so, being intimidated by the vast amounts of available information isn't really justification for "hating" something without having any understanding of it. of course i say that as if i'm particularly wicca-savvy, which i'm not. but of course there are things i don't like that i don't understand... i am hardly one to talk.

Aww...I noticed your edit...haha. Don't worry about it, you raise some good points.

In fact, I may take it one step further....lots of times, not researching things and not staying informed has led to massive hatred of people or ideas. For example, the Bible clearly states that our enemies "are NOT flesh and blood." Yet continually Christians pit themselves against their fellow man, when we are commanded to "love our neighbors as ourself." This is not to say that Christians cannot vehemently argue ideals and fundamental beliefs...but it should never come at the cost of devaluing human life, which God created..................................................in my opinion.

More tolerance:

The latest: fresh out of Malaysia: Morgan Freeman as God in Evan Almighty: Malaysian Muslims call for ban on movie.

Excerpt:

"Malaysian Muslims have called for a ban on the blockbuster movie “Evan Almighty,” saying it is offensive to their religion, state media reported Friday...."The movie refers to the big flood during the time of Prophet Noah, but this has been turned into a comedy which is insulting to Islam,” Secretary-General Maamor Osman told news agency Bernama".....“Featuring a human being as God in the movie is also against Islam,” he added."

The problem I have with this is only 52% of the total Population is Muslim,so why should the movie be banned? It should be left up to the individuals choice, whether they watch this Movie or not. This is denying the other half of the Population freedom of choice.IMHO.

Abu Afak whom was a poet in mohammed's day wrote the following poem describing what he was seeing.…To us that live now, the poem may not seem derogatory toward islam or even derogatory at all. Think of a child in school writing a poem of his surroundings at home...is that child worthy of death if he says, I dunno...some semi-offensive words?

Long have I lived but never have I seen
An assembly or collection of people
More faithful to their undertaking
And their allies when called upon
Than the sons of Qayla when they assembled,
Men who overthrew mountains and never submitted.
A rider who came to them split them in two (saying)
‘Permitted’, ‘Forbidden’ of all sorts of things.
Had you believed in glory or kingship
You would have followed Tubba. (Ishaq 675)

mohammed has this man murdered for the poem. The reason? Because the words "permitted" and "forbidden" are of what he claimed "qur'anic language." With reference to the killing, mohammed asked, “Who will deal with this rascal for me?” Salim Umayr and his brother Amr Auf killed the poet. I think this speaks volumes with regard to tolerance.

Reference: Ishaq (Hadith)

Sahih Bukhari (hadith) - Volume 9, Book 83, Number 17:

Narrated 'Abdullah:
Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."

Apostasy = murder. I don't find any other religion that commands the 'believer' to be "shed" (killed) because said 'believer' leaves the religion. Is it truly any wonder why there are not more people leaving islam? This is my opinion...what's yours?

i have only read your recent posts, but you don't like islam very much, do you?

Correct me if Im wrong but the gist of this is....

def Miracle: A supernatural occurance such as 1) Turning water into wine, 2) Prophasizing the future, 3) Speaking in tounges, 4)Healing the sick

Important Note: This word has been Copyrighted by the Christian Religion for use in their faiths and in the Jewish faiths. All other forms of "miracles" are to be denounced as heresy and witchcraft

Wow. I have honestly sat here trying to comprehend such "hate" - and while we all have the right to remain uneducated about things if we choose, my heart is honestly sad reading how some judge without knowing what they are judging.

I'm not going to ask what some may feel should be 'done' with those they consider 'witches' and evil, etc. Rather I'd simply going to add a bit here in the great hopes that the human spirit is not 'blinded' by misunderstandings.

- - - - - -

The below data is taken directly from a reliable site - no, not a Wicca site - simply the Canadian Government site. http://www.forces.gc.ca/hr/religions/engra...ligions36_e.asp


(Quote) Moral Code: “An it harm none, do as ye will” (This means that a Wiccan should think twice before any action and consider the consequences to others).
· Threefold law — “What ye send returns three times over”: An action will bring back three times as much good karma or bad karma to someone, depending on whether the action was positive or negative.
· Wiccans believe that every individual should find his or her own spiritual path and so do not promote their own religion as being necessarily more correct than any other.

Special Observances
· Yule: A celebration of the winter solstice, at which time the days get longer as the sun is reborn. A yule tree is dressed with fruit so that the gods will provide a fruitful summer. A ritual feast takes place and may include venison, goose, fruit breads and puddings, nuts, spiced wine and hot cider.
· Imbolc: A festival of fire and light that takes place on 2 February, generally. Corn dolls may be burned as offerings to the sun. Ritual foods include salted meats, breads, fruit preserves and red wine.
· Ladyday: Celebrates the vernal equinox. Ritual foods include fowl, seed breads, pancakes and white wine.
· Beltain: A celebration of the mating day of the Sun God and Earth Goddess, which results in a bountiful harvest. Usually celebrated on 30 April and may involve Maypole dances and a ritual feast of eggs, rabbit and wine flavoured with woodruff.
· Litha: Takes place on the summer solstice, when the sun is at the height of its power, creating the longest day of the year. Feasts may include berries, veal, new vegetables and honey wine.
· Lammas: celebration of the first harvest of grain, generally observed 2 August. The Corn God is honoured, and corn is harvested. Corn breads, blueberries, seafood and beer are appropriate feast foods.
· Harvestide: A harvest festival celebrated on the autumnal equinox. At this time, wine and cider are made, and feast foods include apple, game birds, pears and ale.
· Samhain: The feast of the dead, celebrated on 31 October. The spirits of people who died in the last year are honoured with a feast to which they are invited. Foods common to the feast are pork, bread, root crops and red wine. No salt is used in preparing the food, and salt is not consumed.
(Unquote)
- - - - -

For myself, I think there is much beauty in many religions - including Wicca.

"When one defines oneself as Pagan, it means she or he follows an earth or nature religion, one that sees the divine manifest in all creation. The cycles of nature are our holy days, the earth is our temple, its plants and creatures our partners and teachers. We worship a deity that is both male and female, a mother Goddess and father God, who together created all that is, was, or will be. We respect life, cherish the free will of sentient beings, and accept the sacredness of all creation." (Edain McCoy).

I truly 'fear' few things in life. But there are times I fear my fellow man. And not because of war, not because of violence - rather simply because to attack - so blatantly - something not understood at all is, to me, frightening.

I am not, not, not trying to be rude here - truly, I'm trying to understand.

But first, a mentally ill person ranting and raving and declaring herself a witch does not a witch make. Rather a poor mentally ill person in dire need of more help than your kindness in feeding her could ever make, jwinathome.


The questions have been asked by other members and I too would like to understand, if possible, how it can be that:

- Jesus cast out demons and in so doing, put the demons into a herd of animals which drove them mad
- Prophasizing the future
- Healing the sick
- growing arms and legs when prayed over

Each of these things could so easily be classified as 'Witchcraft' - and "of the devil".

I guess what I'm really trying to say here is Faith is a lovely thing for so many people, but 'blind' faith dependent on the very human two-legged person who interprets a holy text - frightening. More so, for me at least, because I view 'cults' as those who refuse to let their followers educate themself in anything other than such strict 'guidelines' that few seem able to form their own opinions - ergo, 'cult'.

No, I'm not saying you belong to a 'cult', CGM, but I would be astonished if even an attempt at trying to understand another Faith through a non-slanted site such as a government site would still be considered 'off limits'. (And I do assure everyone that my Canadian Government isn't either 'pro' an 'anti' any of the religions it provides data on).

Anyway, hope the above information on Wicca has helped, at least a wee bit, in finding it less wicked.

Maybe I wasnt clear. Witchcraft is of the devil. I will have nothing to do with it. As I said I have seen a video at my church about the cult.

I dont need to know more about it other than its of the devil. The Bible talks about it and thats enough for me.

I wanted to add there is only one true religion all the others are fake.

Okay. In your opinion that is true. Doesn't make it reality nor a fact for others- and although I know you meant no harm, please don't call other people's faith 'fake'.

With those words I suspect many a 'unholy' war has been fought. Huge sigh.

Mara, only one religion can be real all others are fakes. Do you understand what I am saying?

One religion may believe in reincarnation while another in heaven and hell. Only one can be right.

CGM3 while you are right (in my beliefe) you need to understand that you have to try to understand other peoples beliefes and try not to offend them. For it says in the Bible to live in peace with everyone. You are to not be inconsiderate and rude toward others beliefes whether they are rude to you are not. Did Jesus have the Pharises blown off the face of the Earth for wanting him dead?

While I agree CGM that you do not want to study and PRACTICE their belifes, I also believe that you are to study their beliefes. How are you to witness to others if you do not understand from what religious background the people are coming from. You have to make a really good first impression and have a good relationship with that person if you are to be a successful fisher of men. People are always watching you for your defaults, we as Christians are to hold each other accountable for their actions in a loving way. We need to love everyone no matter what their beliefes because they are possible converts, but if we give the a bad impression then that will be their outlook upon Christians.

Anyways MaraM, what is trying to be conveyed is that in the Christian beliefe Witchcraft comes from Hell. The Bible makes that very clear.



I can understand how people could take the miracles of Jesus as the work of the Devil. You also have to remember that if he is the Son of Man (God) then he is capable of doing anything and everything imaginable and more. I just want to know what you mean by "growing arms and legs when prayed over".

Faith is a very hard concept to understand. I will admit most people have blind faith. I have based my faith in Christ on scientific evidence and personal experience. The thing that is scary is that we (imperfect humans) are to interpret the Bible (or other Holy text depending on your beliefe). What I have found out is that with Christ in your hearth the Bible makes a whole lot of sence and is correctly interpreted through prayer and a close relationship with God. Which people are going to doubt and question me, but they have not gone through the struggles that I have.

MaraM, I love the fact that you are trying to understand others views and beliefes about religion. I really appreciate that you are taking the time and really care about this topic, please do not hesitate to PM me about anything that you do not understand I will be glad to help you understand.

While I am at it I would like to give my views/comments or whatever you may call them on a few topics.

I understand that people will doubt my beliefes, and that Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc, etc., may have given you or someone you know a bad impression about how they are. People then tend to think that that is how all Jews, Christian, etc, etc., behave. I can not blame anyone for questioning their religion, I would proborably do the same because I am human like the rest of us here, but I strive to not judge others because I was not sent here to judge that is the LORD God's job. I would ask that you may be open minded about me as a Christian and not judge me upon what other Christians have set upon you. That is not a fair way to judge, and I do not do the same to you. God gave everyone the choice to love and accept him or to deny him, so I will not force my beliefe on you, that will only make the problem here worse. I am up for a talk like this on contriversial subjects such as these. I actually find them quite enjoyable.

-Steve

Is it Hinduism or Buddism that bucks this trend of "only one right religion". I forget.

CGM you have pointed out the major flaw in every religion. Thats the "Only We are right" flaw. This is where the hate stems from.

BTW: True Christianity accepts 3 faiths (as we all pray to the same God).
1)Judaism- The Root religion
2)Islam- The brother's religion (yet again tracing to the Abraham story)
3)Christianity - The new religion

We all share the same roots. We all share the same God (If you wish to play the name game I would suggest buying the original texts, ie Hebrew and Greek, and then translating them and seeing what names are actually shared between The Great I Am and Allah, you might discover that most are just translations from one tounge to the next.)


As for Oriental(Confucianism), Native American (Aztec), and Older European Religions (Wicca, Norse, Goth). Did the Christian God abandon these people for the millenniums before Christianity. What choices did they have? I see no Bibles written about an Abraham of Germany or Milwaukee.

According to which version? None of the four versions I have say this. Genesis chapter 16 contains the story of how and why Hagar conceived (Sarai sent her in to her husband. In that culture, children born to the woman's servants were considered her children. You can see this when you read the story of Jacob and his two wives.) and Sarai's (Sarah's) cruel treatment of her afterward, and chapter 21 tells the story of when Sarah conceived and again Sarah's ill-treatment of Hagar and her son. This chapter contains the promise that God would make a nation from Ishmael because he also was Abraham's son. Nowhere does Elohim tell Abraham to kill Hagar or Ishmael. The closest to that is the story of when Abraham is told to sacrifice Isaac and then an angel stops him and a ram is provided instead. I've always wondered how Isaac reacted to that.
--------
A former co-worker of mine is Muslim and made the pilgrimage to Mecca with her mother. While there, she read the Koran and she says "God says to love everybody."
--------
According to discussions of the Bloomington Muslim Dialogue Group I've attended, there are two types of jihad: the greater and the lesser. The greater jihad is the rooting out of evil in your own heart and soul.
--------
I am Christian, but I have great difficulty with the concept of Jesus as divinity. In my reading of the new testament, I notice that every time someone tries to worship Jesus, make a god out of him etc. he always rebuffs it and turns it away.
--------
Short excerpts from a 6 page pastoral letter from Bishop Cate Waynick of the Diocese of Indianapolis of the Episcopal Church written March 15, 2007 and which she has encouraged us to share. (I've quoted as concisely as possible while still retaining the sense of what's written. The numbers are numbers in the text and are not page numbers; I added the bold face).:



---------------
I am one that seeks what various religions and practices have in common, and I also look at what is different and in so doing become more richly informed about my own beliefs and practices.
---------------
The attitude, even if unspoken, of "I want to be in charge" is behind much of the violence and divisions within Christianity historically and in the present.
---------------
I'll have to look this up, but we have some preacher from the 1600's or thereabouts who was responsible for the development of the hell-fire and brimstone sermons. I read about him in an American Literature textbook, along with one of his sermons. I'll look him up again to find out who he is.

Praise be I never had to sit through my great-grandfather's hell-fire and brimstone sermons which turned my grandfather completely off the church. My father was of a different stripe. He never produced such sermons.

Orange Blossom preacher's kid

Thanks for both your interesting posts, BlackSpyder and need TOS - they both makes sense to me (yup, I know that must seem odd .

Reading your words once again made me think how wonderful it is to find people to believe in God personally yet don't condem others who don't. And don't condem others for having a different Faith either - huge happy smile! Because sadly I truly meant my earlier words about 'unholy wars' being fought because of intolerance.

I honestly do understand that within the teachings of the Bible 'witchcraft' would be banned. But perhaps that was based on what was viewed as 'black witchcraft'?

And, although I'm a tad rusty, I think it was during history class when we studied the past - and how women who were 'healers' (usually simply meant theywere skilled in natural herbs, etc) could be called out to help someone. If the person died, they were declared a 'witch'. If the person lived, oddly enough she could still be called a 'witch' because after all she'd used 'witchcraft' to cure someone - and still put to death. Talk about a 'no-win' situation! Eep!

The reference to someone growing arms and legs was, I believe, posted earlier in this thread by CGM. And while I could have misunderstood, I think a missionary came to his Church and told them/showed pictures?

Of course there is also the possibility that no religions are right.

God knows you may be right!

... isn't that a bit like getting information about the yankees from a red sox fan?

There is a possiblity that all religions are wrong, and there's a possiblity that ALL religions are right, There is a possibility that religions were made because as humans we naturally are curious and want to know how everything is (ex. the world was made, what makes it thunder) To claim 1 religion is right while saying another is a "fake" all moves people away from your beliefs as they may see you as inconsiderate and extreme. most religions claim they are the "right" religion, but right and wrong are what YOU believe (as discussed earlier, right and wrong are specific to locations, races, beliefs, therefore they differ soo much).

Personally I was very put off by earlier posts in which a member basicly stated out loud "your ideals are bad", we are all entitled to our opinions/beliefs but to have someone say "You're wrong, and what you believe in is horrible" and to publicly make you look like you support a religion that wants you to eat souls and kill people, Truthfully I feel humiliated and distraught.

I know you're stating what you believe and supporting it, but you do have to realize that people will judge your religion by what you say/do, therefore you are an ambassador to your religion, being a religion is not a job where you maybe work 40 hrs. a week it means 24/7 everyday of the year you must represent your religions ideals positively. We all may be off different religions, or even no religion at all, but we all share this planet and live together, why not instead of promoting misunderstanding or a serious religious ego, why don't we be friends and bathe together in the light of understanding.

Galileo once offered one of the schoolmen his telescope to view the newly discovered moons of Jupiter. The scholastic declined to look because he was convinced that none could exist because they were not mentioned in Aristotle's treatise on astronomy.

Copi, Introduction to Logic (1961), p 422.

Cheers,
John

Only one can be right though. Like I said above you cant have it 4000 different ways.



Witchcraft is witchcraft there is no such thing as white witchcraft nor is there such thing as a white lie. A lie is a lie.



There can only be ONE religion that is right. I do want to know how all religions can be right, like what you said.

cgm - while there are undoubtedly weirdos in the wiccan faith, there are weirdos in the christian faith as well. i have only met a few wiccans, but they were all kind and gentle people. its a shame for anyone to think that witchcraft is just a bunch of old loons "cursing" random strangers. because for one, there's a saying in the wiccan faith that any harm you cause on another being will come back to you threefold... its a fairly peaceful religion. also, don't confuse it with satanism; people love to do that for whatever reason.

of course 'witchcraft' can refer to religions other than wicca... its just the one that i'm most familiar with.

That is what drove me away from the Church for life.Sheer misery I went through as a Child growing up.I am still a Christian.
You don't have to belong to any Religion to be a good Christian.By going to Church all your doing is being Brainwashed by a Sweet Talking Preacher,who tries to instill his own, often warped ideas on the Gullible.A big sign should be erected outside every Church "Brainwashing here every Sunday" and if you still want more we have Prayer meetings through the week.
The biggest curse to Christianity is Religion in my opinion.70+MILL Christians and roughly 70+Mill Muslims have been Slaughtered in the name of Religion.You can't tell me Religion is a good thing.If there were no Religions,we all worshipped who ever we wanted to, then the World would be a better place.
To not listen and understand someone elses Faith whether you agree with it or not,and have Tolerance,makes one a totally ignorant Person.IMHO. To be totally fixated with one Religion and call all other Faiths wrong,you are not being true to yourself.
It was only mans stupid idea to form different Religions.Aren't we all here for a common purpose,to Praise and give thanks to God?
CGM3,How can you say your Religion is right,when you haven't a clue what the other Religions preach?
If you think Wiccan is Bad,which in my opinion is absolutely not,try reseaching Inca Sacrifices.They used to sacrifice their own Children to the Gods.

On supposition that the theory of "one God, one church" is true, then how does one determine which God, and which church?
Would it not be incumbent on a individual seriously to explore every possible version of God, or at least every religious belief (or church, as it were) rather than taking as true the one that, by a mere accident of birth, the person currently believes?
And, of course, performing this precarious search from outside the safety (not to mention the possibility even though remote that one's current beliefs are in error) of one's current dogma and religious beliefs?

Cheers,
John

I have read a bit and as I said I saw a video at my church on the cult. I know basically how they work.

Ambelina its not the wiccans peacefullness I am against,its that witchcraft is wrong period. You don't need a religion to be a good person.



Yes but what makes Christianity different from all other religions is Jesus. You have to ask him for forgiveness of your sins and believe in him to get to heaven.

ussr1943's " why don't we be friends and bathe together in the light of understanding" - beautifully put and thank you!

Orangeblossom, our posts must have 'crossed' yesterday but thanks so much for the gentle quotes from Bishop Cate Waynick - suspect one could attend her (and your father's sermons) without danger of being horrified with the 'fire and brimstone' attitude so many, while truly believing in it, must have done far more harm than good in their world.

Truly didn't know that the 'fire and brimstone' actually had a starting point! This is interesting indeed and whoever he was and if there is life after death, I hope he's hanging his head in shame. For me, DSTM explained perfectly why so many leave organized religion, never to return - hard to love a Faith if love and tolerance to one's fellow man isn't honestly part of it.

I do agree with ambellina completely - when a person has a 'only I am right' mindset and makes for instance a video of something - he or she is not going to show both sides of the story and then let the listener decide. Rather, they have one purpose and one purpose only - to convince others of his or her point of view - with the great hopes that the viewer will not be strong enough in one's Faith to question what they are shown by someone else in that same Faith, usually a leader.

It would be a kindness much appreciated if one didn't refer to Wicca as a "cult". I promise you my Canadian Government is not one to include 'cults' when enacting laws of freedom and recognition of religions,

I have a question to make - one I am most serious about - and it's my intense hope that no one is offended by it.

If a miracle happened, such as the one described as 'growing arms and legs' - that is wonderful indeed. But what if - and I'm only saying 'if' here - the missionary in his zealousness 'fibbed' a bit, even with great intentions to spread the word of his Lord and miracles and to raise a tad more money for his missionary work.

There isn't a good way to say any of this, I know, but one would think this missionary would be shouting this miracle from the 'tree tops', sharing it with all religious leaders and the world to show the power of God. At the very least, if Church leaders agreed that a miracle had just happened, I bet millions, literally millions would repent and start flocking to their nearest Church. And I - yup me - would be thrilled!!

Please, CGM, do not 'answer' my above thoughts re the missionary's story. I can't prove why I choose not to Believe, nor should you have to prove why you do. I only ask with such great respect that one consider the possibility that not everyone who walks and talks the word of God is someone God may approve of.

But on a personal level ... please reassure me that if a family with the religion of Wicca moved into your community, you would neither shun them nor automatically believe they are 'evil'.
- - -
John, I LOVED your post, "Galileo once offered one of the schoolmen his telescope to view the newly discovered moons of Jupiter. The scholastic declined to look because he was convinced that none could exist because they were not mentioned in Aristotle's treatise on astronomy.

Copi, Introduction to Logic (1961), p 422".

i agree. but past conversations tell me that thats not really what you meant to say...

What do you think I meant to say?

i don't know. but knowing how seriously you take your religion, it seemed a bit out of character for you to say that someone could be a good person without being religious. i don't mean that rudely, it just surprised me. but perhaps i've misjudged you