Here is a letter sent from mohammed to a Christian prince as written of in William Muir's book (a Life of Mahomet and History of Islam to the Era of the Hegira)....

“To John ibn Ru’ba and the chief of Ayla. Peace be upon you. .. I will not fight you until I have written thus unto you. Believe or else pay tribute (Jizyah). …Ye know the tribute. If ye desire security by sea and by land, obey Allah and his apostle…. But if ye oppose and displease them, I will accept nothing from you until I have fought against you and taken captive your little ones and slain the elder; for I am the apostle of Allah in truth….”

What are you trying to get a JW with all these verses from the Koran?

I made the point that I personally believe that the teachings of islam are fundamentally bad. I am using various examples of why I believe that.

Also, many of these things are used by terrorists as justification for their actions, just as some people would say that certain biblical aspects were used improperly for justification for certain elements of the crusade's purpose.

I for one appreciate jw's research and selection of quotations, since I am not all that familiar with the texts of the Koran that can be used to justify what most civilised people of all faiths would call highly immoral acts. As jw also, and very correctly to my mind, points out, parallel passages from Christian scripture could be adduced to show the same point.
Cheers,
John

John, you may have some philosophical interest in this group....they reject scientific theology, and operate daily on what many people might call a "superstitious" ideology, however they base it on trying to replicate the life of mohammed. They also reject..."concepts like economics, constitutions, political parties, revolution and social justice."

At least eight dead in a car bombing claimed by the Salafi Group for Preaching and Combat: Algerian car bombing kills 8.

(Trying to impose sharia on people that, well, didn't want it.)

See here for a pretty good description of "salafism"....

Here is a different group....called the Abu Sayyaf jihadis. They interpret things a little differently than other groups. Same result.

Fourteen dead at the hands of the Abu Sayyaf jihadis in the Philippines, some of them beheaded: Militants kill 14 Philippine marines, behead 10: military.

Well said, Iodine. It's refreshing to read words from a Christian that are filled with tolerance for others - and just reading your words makes my heart smile. Thank you!

I literally cringe at the idea of anyone from the Muslim community reading this thread - for the kind, tolerant ones that live amoung us, it must be heartbreaking - and for the ones that may lean to the extremist end of things, we've provided fodder for their cannons.

It's often not our thoughts or beliefs so much that make enemies, it's how we verbalize our thoughts and beliefs, perhaps.

Does anyone truly want this thread to turn into a Koran/Bible bashing. With people adding harm that has been done by both side in their name of their beliefs. Apparently so.

While searching around for all the vile deeds done by a certain group of people, please spend equal amount of time searching around for vile deeds done in the name of religion based on what those people feel is Christianity. Whoever does it, it's vile.

Prove. How easy to 'prove' select things if only we try hard enough. What about Faith in general - it can't be 'proven', that's why it's called Faith. I've said it before carefully and succinctly - while one may not be able to 'prove' the vile things said by certain people can be directly linked to their culpability in actions taken by others, can one prove they have not.

At the point of being rude here and I sadly make no apologies for this statement and will understand if our Moderators should wish to withdraw my statement or even ban me from our Bleeping. Gentle sigh.

Re: "Fight to the end, meaning death? "long as one does no harm to another." I don't understand what you mean by that.


I think, with due respect, you do know exactly what I mean here.


I - a person who, as an atheist, has been assumed to have no moral code to run on - would fight to the end.

I - and many, many people similar to me - belief strongly in the right - the human right - of people to believe in what they choose. And if these individuals do no physical harm to others, to take this right away, is to trample the very freedom my grandparents and millions of others fought so hard for.

Wonder if the same could be said if the tables were turned and one's government decided that all atheists weren't actually citizens. Would the religious troops rally around our freedoms too.

Well said 'MaraM' and 'Iodine'.To me,a lot of these current Posts are nothing more than Muslim Bashing in disguise,by the self righteous,and for another Member to encourage more of the same, to me is not being a true Christian,at least how I was taught anyway. I notice these Members aren't proud enough of their own Religion to disclose what Denomination they belong to.

Some of our members have been deeply wounded by the direction this thread has taken, sadly - and I wonder if I may simply add a site where one does not have to look far to find goodness within another Faith.

http://www.alislam.org/mta/summary/january23-2004.html

The online Official Website of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community “Love for All, Hatred for None”.

If members read it and come to even a tiny bit more understanding of the people who live around us with this Faith, I'd be so pleased - and if not, I'd appreciate no bashing of the Muslims basic Faith.

Extremists of any or no faith - bash away. Let us leave the peaceful people in peace, not matter their Faith or lack of one, please.

This thread makes me laugh.

Does anyone want to discuss various religious concepts?

I have not been bashing anything. I expressed my opinion, and used examples to illustrate why I believe that way. I find it odd that people are so offended by things that are written about islam. Please PM the moderators to complain.

While I certainly appreciate the viewpoint of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community (and have friends that claim and hold their same ideology.)

I personally think a problem lies at the root of fundamental islam. (The people I get together with love talking about it....and they are muslims (one who converted from Christianity)...I speak and present the same things to them. Oddly enough, they don't get offended.)

This post... was here before I even entered the thread.

Veering off slightly here, Canada and many other Countries have enacted laws which, for many seem to be taking away rights, but were necessary to help prevent 'hate crimes'.

We are permitted to say pretty much anything in the privacy of our own homes or when not in a public place but publicly inciting hatred and wilfully promoting hatred are illegal here. We have the right to express our likes and dislikes but not if it causes the below:

Examples:

"The (Canada) Criminal Code specifically defines hate crimes. They involve hate against people because of their colour, race, religion or ethnic origin.

Most crimes involve a certain amount of hate and anger, but hate crimes are special. They cause two sorts of harm: they cause emotional damage to members of the target group. Secondly, they can create serious discord between various cultural groups in society. Thus, they attack the basic bonds that bind our culturally diverse society together.

The Criminal Code specifically defines hate crimes. They involve hate against people because of their colour, race, religion or ethnic origin. In these kinds of crimes, the act of spreading hate is against the law".

"A charge of publicly inciting hatred may be laid against the maker of the hateful statements, because the maker incited hatred through his statements, which were made in a public place, and were likely to (or almost did) lead to a public disturbance.".

However, a charge of wilfully promotion of hatred would not be appropriate, however, if the statements, though hateful, were made as part of a private conversation".

For instance:
"a pastor who preaches against homosexuality could be charged with inciting a hate crime if one of his church members—sometime after hearing the pastor’s comments—commits a crime against a homosexual person".

(Source and full article: http://www.acjnet.org/youthfaq/define.html).

Personally, I'm ever so pleased we have this law within my Country - while it may be walking on egg-shells at times for some, it in itself, is a kind law in my opinion.

Does anyone else feel these laws were necessary in their own Countries, as well?

- - - - -

This shall be the last comment I make about what has been happening here prior in this thread - and I'm sure knowing that will be a relief for many. Gentle smile. And perhaps, hopefully, it will press home my point.

"This thread makes me laugh". How nice that it makes one laugh, even knowing for reasons posted repeatedly, that some feelings have been hurt and at least one member has felt humiliated.

I have something to say to that.

What a bunch of crap. Did the pastor do it?

In the USA they want to take the right of the pastors free speech away where he cant talk about how homosexuality is wrong according to the Bible.

I find the Canada law very intriguing. What would constitute "preaching against homosexuality." Is saying..."The Bible says homosexuality is wrong." preaching against homosexuality, and then can be charged with inciting a hate crime?

Do you feel that we, and we alone are responsible for our own actions? Or do you feel that the pastor would be just as responsible as the person committing the crime?

Although not a lawyer, I suspect it would depend on what was said.

If a comment was made by a Pastor that he feels homosexuality is wrong/sinful - okay.

If he says something like Gays are pedophiles ... Gays are deviants ...Gays hate God ... Gays commit 80% of child molestations - and gets his congregation all riled up to hate or do mental or physical harm to homosexual people - I would hope the law would apply.

One example, although not a Canadian one, I think it would quality for this law to take place if done in Canada as well.

Rev. Fred Phelps
(The Westboro Baptist Church, Topeka, KS -
Phelps gained national attention protesting at Matt Shepard's funeral)

Gays worthy of death

"Not only is homosexuality a sin, but anyone who supports fags is just as guilty as they are. You are both worthy of death (Romans 1:32)," Phelps quoted by State Press (Arizona State University), March 11, 1998.

I should think it would be guilty of inciting people to harm homosexual people, either/or mentally or physically.

And should someone act on the words of a Pastor such as this, hopefully the person doing the actual act of killing a homosexual person wouldn't be left hanging high and dry by his pastor, who, whether intentionally or not, said words that could be seen as saying, kill.

In the case cited, I absolutely agree. It seems this man missed a core Christian concept of "hating the sin, and loving the sinner." And of course, Jesus said, "..he among you who is without sin, cast the first stone."

Yes, and I'm so pleased you too agree that something like this would be 'over the top'

I always feel badly when people, who want only to trust and believe what they leaders say, are led by people who incite intolerance and hate of others. And it's for that reason I'm so pleased our law was enacted.

If one preaches it - stand tall and take the consequences.

I think we had a teacher than stood up and announced to all his classed that the Jews were not put to death by Hitler and his minions. And then 'wept' when charged with causing huge upset with all the people who survived the death camps, etc.

I can appreciate your right to your religious beliefs jwinathome and I can appreciate your opinion concerning any other religion and the extensive research that you did to learn about a particular religion in order to demonstrate why you believe as you do. I do not,however, consider that continuing to go on and on about one religion (Islam in particular) and it's bad points (as perceived not only by you but by many others) to constitute a discussion concerning different religous concepts through out the world. "My religion is better than yours" mentality? I too am not infallable and may have gotten carried away with this statement. Bashing? Maybe the club was not being wielded but it was sure coming darn close, esp. when the main topic of the thread seems to have focused on one religion in particular and or the belief or nonbelief of others on a continueing basis. It seems to me that in order to have a good discussion concerning world religious concepts would require that more than one religion or group be discussed and that the discussion in this particular forum of ones opinion should not be the basis of the majority of the discussion that takes place. This includes my opinion, your opinion or anyone elses. Many interesting links were provided and facts that will be useful to anyone wanting to learn more about Islam but I also would like the chance to learn from others here about other religious concepts, be it their religion or one that they may have possibly studied and can enlighten us all about whether we believe as they do or not. Have I taken the wrong idea of this topic? If so please forgive me. If not may we continue in a more tolerant manner? To any that I may have offended forgive me, it was not intentional but as I stated previously I too am most fallable.

Iodine, thanks for the response. I don't think my "religion" is better than anyone else's.

Everyone has a freedom to post whatever they wish here. I am not supressing any free speech. Sure I am posting a lot, but is that wrong?

With all due respect, I don't believe the issue has anything to do with tolerance.

Thank you for your reply though. I read it, and take it to heart. I must say however, certain people have expressed interest.

jwinathome, did I not say that I may have gotten carried away when I used the term"my religion is better than yours", in my first post? I believe I did and said that I am not infallable.

I do however believe that tolerance does apply. It takes a great deal of tolerance to let someone freely speak their mind about something that you don't neccessarily agree with and not try to censor them because their opinion is different from yours. Tolerance of others beliefs is being,mentally, adult enough to accept the fact that you have your own opinion but not everyone else must agree or believe the same way that you do.

As for how many times a person post to a topic, I believe that is still a free decision we all are permitted to make for ourselves. It is my opinion though that there is such a thing as over kill or "whipping a dead horse". If you don't feel that your point has been sufficently made by all means post on with my kind regards and (since you research so well,no insult intended) any information that you have or would care to provide on other religous concepts that would make good material for a discussion would indeed be greatly appreciated.

By the way, I'm not quite sure I understood your remark about some others expressing some interest. Could you please elaborate?

Iodine

If you would like me to state the denomination that I am a part of, here goes. I officially attend a Baptist church. Personally I choose not to go by denominational splits. I view Christians as Christians no matter if they are baptists, methodists, catholic, or others. Theses splits happened because people would not set aside their pride and seek what God meant in a passage of scripture. They were more interested in being right, instead of was God said was right.

I too have grown weary of the confrontational tone this thread has taken. I'll continue to post my thoughts in the manner that I usually post, (just ask Mara about some of the discussions we have had in other threads). Let us all try to get back to the civil debate that we all are used to.


Seafox14

I understand that you are trying to state your opinion, but the tone of the posts has been seen as confrontational by some here. there are better ways to make your point.

Seafox14

And yes, seafox14, we've had some great discussions - and I've learned a lot and had fun debating various topics!

Seafox. I agree with your first post whole heartedly. it seems that many church leaders (all churches, all religions) have decided to split just because they were told that they were wrong or they felt the other sect was wrong.

However moving on. Why dont we all pick new religions to debate on (lets try some "dead" ones) how-about the Norse, Roman, and Greek religions (I'm sure they had better names back then)

I'll even start. From the book of Thor Chapter 4 Stanza 3 "....and Thor struck his Hammer of Power down upon the Roman invaders and their God Aries."


Maybe next week we can get around to the Wicca, Druids, UCS (United Church of Satan), and Star Trek.

Ooh, ooh, let's 'do' Wiccas!

My Aunts once stunned me at the dinner table when they started discussing the 'wicked Wiccas' - eep!

Will have to wander off and do some research on Thor - I'm a bit rusty but remember the books used to scare the pooey out of me when I read late at night hiding under the bedcovers.

Love turns away anger and Anger does not make people listen to you and turns them off.

Lets all talk peacefully everybody.

I dont even think Thor was mentioned in "Beowulf" (proper spelling?) or "The 13th Warrior". I know Oden was mentioned in both and I believe Loki was too.

Loki is one of the great "pranksters" of all time, possibly better then Satan.


BTW outside of those references the only thing i can remember about Thor is that he had a Marvel comic book. LOL

If I remember correctly, Marvel comic books did indeed have Thor (the 'Thunderer') - but I think they made him a pretty scary guy.

History wise, it was the Norsemen/Vikings that worshiped him - and luckily, no one feed people to him to keep him appeased. (Except one poor King after several years of draught - but that's far from proven, I think).

Rather, "he was seen to be concerned with fairness, moral rights versus moral wrongs and brought storms, which bring rain, which is essential for crops" and the god of the common man.

"Religion went hand in hand with law at that time. The places where duels (called hólmgang) were held were also considered sacred places. This kind of duels represented the Viking way of making justice. The gods helped in the duel the one who was right". (Why do I suspect that the biggest and strongest guy was always 'right'?).

(Source and full story: http://www.newsfinder.org/site/more/thor_god_of_thunder/ )


But Wicca. It's a practise that is 'alive and doing' well today, and in fact,

Wow, talk about not liked by so, so many people!

(Quote) "Those who allow their faith to be known publicly are very heavily persecuted in North America; on a per-capita basis, they may well be victimized more often than members of any other religious group. Many assaults, arson, and economic attacks are reported yearly. There have even been shootings, one public mass stoning and one lynching in recent years!" (Unquote).

(Source: http://www.masonicinfo.com/wicca.htm - not a great 'source' if the person reading happens to not like the Masons, but interesting).

Aren't Wicca and the Druid religion connected in some way?? i know that they are both from the Northern European area and have a thing for nature but I know very little besides that about these religions. Off to consult Wikipeidia.


BTW: Off Topic Sidenote: The Thor comic book was discontinued in the 1980's and has done cameos in a few Marvel comics since then but recently in a Marvel Comics push to re-invigorate readers in a whole Marvel Universe story line they brought Thor back and rumor has it that he will get his own monthly series again and possibly a movie soon.

I think they are connected, in the present day at least, in only that they are both considered something called 'Neopagan' family of religions.

And I always find myself grinning when I speak of the Druids as it's the Welsh people who claim them for their own (the true Welsh people - the Silures or Iberians - were in the land long before the Romans ever appeared). Some think (as in my own family) that they were terrible and yes, there are so many various accounts of what they did or did not do, I'm inclined to think they were far more peaceful that given credit for. (Always found it interested that my family members considered them so bad yet claim to be able to use genealogy to link directy back to them).

As for the poor Wicca religion - and yup, it is a recognised religion. Experts can't seem to agree if the origins go back to the Middle Ages but when Christianity swept through Europe and Britian, they went into hiding (and wow, who could blame them!).

I think it was around the late 1940s or early 1950s when the 'Witchcraft Law' was finally repealed in Britian that there was relative safety for the Covens to come out from hiding.

But even today, lots of people think they are sinful and worship the devil and similar things. In fact, although I can't for the life of me remember where I read this a year or two ago, apparently if a poll was done of all people, it's felt by some that most would either consider them 'sinful' or not a religion that should be recognised as such - ergo, no protection as other religions receive. In fact, while people here in Canada have always had the right to call on their religious leaders for whatever reason, it's only lately that member of the Wicca have the given the right to do the same.

When parents hope their children bring home 'the one they love' and they hope he or she will be of the same Faith, it may be a bit of a shocker to hear their child say, "This is ____. the love of my life who just happens to be Wicca"!

Some Wicca rituals can be viewed in the music video for Godsmack's "Voodoo". From what Ive read it was done with the Coven's permission as long as it was shown in the proper context.

Hmm!! aren't those associated with wicca sometimes said to practice "white witchcraft" as opposed to "black witchcraft" or others of the darker arts who bring demons and the worship of the devil into their ceremonys? I'm not sure but I think this is what I was told a few years back by someone I knew who was just starting to take up wicca as her form of religion. I think it may be interesting to find out for sure what all is involved in wicca. I'll try to do some looking around for info also. I think sometimes it is better to learn the true nature of something rather than let it remain a mystery and therefore something to be feared.

Yes, you're ever so right, Iodine. I was simply too cowardly to bring up the word 'witch' - hoot! In fact, one of our girls is deeply religious and she has a hissy fit when I try to explain that one of my dearest friends is indeed a 'witch'. I do the sensible thing of course - simply never have them both here at the same time - grin!

I think the problem may stem from her particular Pastor honestly believing them to practice 'witchcraft' and to be evil - and the poor, darling girl often must dispair that I think this particular religion both harmless and quite charming. (We simply learned long ago to never discuss a few topics, Wicca and homosexuality is two of them).

There is a reason for your daughter's reaction that may have nothing to do with her pastor. According to the bible there is only God or Satan. All power that does not come from God comes from Satan and the other Fallen angels that followed him. Satan and his minions can and do disguise themselves as angels of light or forces of good to deceive people. This is more likely the source of your daughter's discomfort that the teaching of a particular pastor.

As for wicca or other religions, I'll have to bow out of the conversation as I don't know enough about them to comment on them. I don't have a problem if other people want to practice other religions than Christianity, but it is not for me. I'll still keep reading the post though.


Seafox14

Reading up and trying to research Anglo Saxon Wicca,I came across a very interesting Web Site. MaraM, with your Flame Red Hair,and my Blue Eyes,I think we would have had a very short life span,had we lived in those times. I believe a lot of Witchcraft is still practiced in Haiti,from what I have read. Would hate to go there and find myself the centre of attention.LOL
Here is the Link,which IMO give a good description of the time when Witchcraft was common.

http://www.angelfire.com/realm2/amethystbt/witcheswhat.html

Just out of curiosity, has anyone seen a "wiccan" demonstrate magic, or power? I've been cursed (imagine that) by witches on various occasions. (Even cut with a knife by one.) Never felt the affects of any of the curses.

Anyway, I thought I would share something this morning that is light-hearted and hopefully won't get me into trouble.

In Christianity, the "church" or sanctified people are often referred to as the "Bride of Christ." There are several instances throughout the Bible that speak of the Bride and the Bridegroom...meaning Christ and the church. In ancient Jewish custom, the Bridegroom would go and prepare a place for the Bride. Thusly Jesus said in John 14:1-4

John 14:1-4 "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in
God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many
mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to
prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for
you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that
where I am, there you may be also. And where I go you
know, and the way you know."

This is a parallel to life now. (Unfortunately, instead of just waiting for Jesus and loving our neighbors as ourselves, we are hell-bent on "works" and trying to "clean" the Earth, if you will, for His return.) In the Ancient Jewish Marriage, the father decided when the Groom was allowed to go to his Bride. Likewise, The Father only knows when Jesus will return for His Bride. There are many other fascinating parallels in the world.

The Bible within the context of its time often seems 3-dimensional to me. In fact, Hebrew is often referred to as a "3-dimensional language".

I would like to broach the subject of Pre-Destination.

During one of my courses in college, we studied the Bagavade Gita (Hindu Holy Book) and one of its major premises is that we really have no choice as to our life direction. Our path is laid before our feet, and we are destined to follow it.

From a Christian point of view (and I mean this to be thought provoking), I have always struggled with the validity of Free Will. Herein lies my dilemna:

If God truly is omniscient, then He already knows the choices that I am going to make.
If, by choice, I follow an evil path, God knew I was going to make said decision.
But God is also said to be benevolent.
Why would God create me knowing that I will bring evil into the world?
Of course, then we are all told that everything happens for a reason.
So if there is a reason, then there must be a plan.
If there is a plan, then our actions must be Pre-Destined to fulfill this plan.

Is it not better for a religion to come out from the beginning and tell you, "Whatever you choose will follow my design, so you really lack control, as I have already designed what you will choose."? Interestingly, this 'idea' is expounded upon in the Gita, through the story of Arjuna and Krishna.

What are your thoughts?

As Christians, our ultimate goal in life is to reflect the "light" of Jesus Christ onto the people of the earth. In the heavens, the moon is representative of the church, because it reflects the light (Glory) of the sun (Son). (The latter is not Biblical, just a parallel perspective.)

quote name='blueandgold04' date='Jul 12 2007, 10:41 AM' post='567596'

Great questions B&G, and I completely understand your dilemma.

Firstly, do you believe yourself that we are predestined for either heaven or hell? I.E. Some are predestined and determined to go to hell by God, and likewise, some are predestined to go to Heaven?


When you say you question the validity of free will...how would you first define free will? (This is a very interesting topic by the way. Please don't take the way I am asking questions to mean I have all the answers. I just want to understand where you are coming from.)

Thanks for the link, DSTM - yes, I'm afraid I'd have been cooked or hanged back with, without a doubt. In reality, I may not have made it much past my birth as being born with a 'caul' was also believed to be a sign of witchcraft or evil back then, I believe - huge eep!

Although I realize many of the reasons why 'witches' were declared such, I've always found it interesting that the Catholic Church (corrupt back then) must have had a heck of a time explaining the differences between their religious 'miracles' and how a 'witch' was guilty of darn near everything that went wrong in a person's life. Geesh.

But even odder how some of the fear lingers, even with Christians - and I use Christians as an example only because my family is composed of Christian people, some wonderful and some 'not so much' - gentle smile. For instance, I have aunts that declared as soon as I was born (for reason stated above) that I was to be viewed 'with extreme caution'. Hmmmph.

And thanks seafox for being up front about Wicca - and I completely understand. In fact, until my friend both explained some things and I did a bit of heavy research on my own at our local library (before I ever owned a magic computer), I was doubtful that she wasn't be 'sucked into some kind of cult'.

In reality, at least for the most part and definitely regarding my friend, the Wicca not only recognized the God of others, they validate the God of others and believe that the creative forces of the universe exists in many, many forms - but all part of the same source.

Our girl was more 'okay' with it than 'unsettled' but her particular Pastor has very personal feelings about many things, in my opinion. He is a tad less 'tolerance' and a great deal more 'judgemental' that I'd like in many areas. He still believes a woman should be subservient to her husband, etc - and I'm just glad that our girl choose Wicca to believe him on and the subservient stuff far less so - gentle grin.

Are you saying your daughter is a witch?

lol...do you believe in witches CGM?

Nope, I know it must seem ever so confusing but one of our girls objects to my being dear friends with a woman who's religion is Wicca.

Oddly enough perhaps, our girls were all exposed to many varied 'fundamental' religions as children - anytime a friend, of whatever Faith, wanted them to have a sleep-over and it would involve attending Church, off they went. And each Christmas (and do try not to laugh too hard here) we'd take the girls to hear Christmas Caroles in various Churches.

Although we took them for the incredible music, we had no fear that they would 'pick up' religious teachings. In fact, they learned at a very early age that so many religions exists yet so many religious have many, many similarities - and if they chose to have a belief in God or not, that was fine with us too. Two chose not to and one chose to. And each girl was equally supported by us in whatever they chose. (Yup, even ensured the girl who chose to have Faith received as much education as possible from the Pastor of her choice).

And when we have family dinners, Grace is said - in respect for those that do believe in God. We have choices, to bow our heads and pray or simply to sit silently and respect the others.

I know - and I mean this with such sincere respect - that some must find my husband and I indeed strange. But while some may cringe, it's worked for us. We each had the opportunity to learn tolerance and understanding without fear.

Mara, would you grant that others may have a differing opinion on what tolerance is?

Also, because you have been so open with all of us, please don't mind my asking...
Being an Atheist...(I will not assume, but ask), say your child believes in God, will you disagree with that basic belief, or not? If not, do you hold either consciously, or subconsciously the thought that the child is only believing in God to help themselves deal with the world that surrounds them?

I for one do not think you are strange at all in this approach. You have your beliefs, and you hold to them. That is more than can be said of some of the 'Religious' ilk. The perceived 'need' for us all to be alike leads to more problems than if we all accepted our differences and grew from them, IMHO.

jwin, isn't that why you believe in God? Do you not rely on God to help you deal with the world you are in?

Yes I believe in witches. The Bible mentions them.

Deuteronomy 18:10-12 says, “Let no one be found among you who… practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells…Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD...”

http://www.gotquestions.org/Wicca.html

Im sorry CGM, I should have put (just kidding) on the end of it.

jwin, isn't that why you believe in God? Do you not rely on God to help you deal with the world you are in?

Without giving away too much personally...

It is not the reason.

I invite you to get to know some of my personal friends...Rolland and Heidi.

At the very least, view the gallery of pictures to see beautiful smiles on beautiful children. It will lift your spirit.

Thank you for the link. It is nice to read of people who give of themselves.

I respect your privacy, didn't mean to get too personal.

no worries B&G...half the time I am not serious about that stuff. I was only answering your question though. It isn't the reason.