I absolutely look on a daily basis ussr. Considering how many supposed peace-loving muslims there are....the stories of opposition are extremely rare. I am in no way saying "All muslims are bad." I think comparing modern-islam to nazi germany is an excellent comparison.

At present, Islam is in many areas so involved with political struggles that it cannot establish itself as a religion, and today finds its adherents predominantly among the poorly educated in the world. So much so that we feel that it has turned its back on itself and we forget that during the European dark ages, it was Islam that kept safe much of the written monuments to civilisation and it was the Islamic intellectuals who achieved advances in science.

At present, the majority of adherents of Islam, in a topsy-turvy way, are the modern barbarians, now with awesome ability for destruction. It remains to be seen whether the world at large can afford to give Islam---by which I mean it's adherents--- the time it needs to find itself as a religion through reduction of their poverty and a more just, modern political system. When these two advances are a reality, and the moderates are freed from fear of reprisals and choppings, only then will Islam take its rightful place.

Regards,
John

JGWEED....there is only one problem with your theory. The fact that 5 highly-educated doctors foiled an attack. And there have been variously highly-educated, and VERY rich terrorists. It may be somewhat "predominant", but the fact is, its not a fact at all. The more time going by, the more we are seeing its not always poverty-stricken, poorly-educated people.

I can understand that there are exceptions, which you rightly mention, but I still think that even those are greatly influenced by the world-view in which they are brought up and in which they spend much of their lives, to the point where their education is a superficial mask for darker passions absorbed from their surroundings. As another Member has mentioned, the history of the Nazi movement in Germany after WW1 is instructive, not only for the number of "good souls" who passively collaborated, but in addition to help explain the many highly educated academics who were engulfed by the array of their surroundings which even the tradition of German Kultur was powerless against.
Cheers,
John

So then what is the answer....another world war? To those that think war is never an answer....how are the suppressed and tyrannized "peace-loving" muslims to solve this problem? Before the entire world of Islam is "hijacked"?

Three men guilty of botched 2005 London bomb plot.

"LONDON (Reuters) - Three men were convicted on Monday of plotting to bomb London’s transport system on July 21, 2005 in a botched attempt to replicate Islamist suicide bombings that had killed 52 people two weeks earlier. "
...
"The moment Ibrahim and Mohammed tried to detonate their bombs was caught on closed circuit television footage. Mohammed could be seen turning his rucksack, containing the bomb, to face a young mother with a small child just as he detonated it."

I guess jihad is just misinterpreted over, and over, and over.

Interesting photo shopped propaganda.

USSR I dont know if you are Muslim or really if you go by the Islamic religion but you seem to know a lot about it so I will ask.

Does the Koran not say to kill all the infidels who do not believe like you? Does it say its a blessing to kill the infidels?

There are 'extremists' in darn near every religious belief.

The below quote comes from an article at the 'Islam101 site' ... the article itself is a tad dated but I suspect it still holds true even today.

(Quote) ‘Christian Extremists’ …

“ It appears that some Christian leaders missed some important lessons from the teachings of Jesus Christ (peace be on him).

Recent hate mongering remarks by Frank Graham, Ann Coulter, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell against Islam and Prophet Muhammad (peace be on him) reflect ignorance, arrogance, self-conceit and bigotry. They need to hang the Ten Commandments around their necks and recite "Love Thy Neighbor" hundred times a day. They also need to read the following daily:
Matthew 5:9:"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God."
James 3:18:"Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness." (Unquote)

Full article and source: http://www.islam101.com/terror/christianExtremists.htm

- - - - -
Re my earlier comment in reply to an even earlier set of words ...

Re: ""The fool hath said in his heart, 'There is no God'"

I respect your right to feel this way - after all, it's truly an opinion not a fact that I and others like me are fools. Gentle sigh.

But at least I'm a happy, content and caring 'food' - grin.

First of all, I need to proof-read better - since 'food' should read 'fool'.


CGM, that was simply my way of trying to make a wee point. When one adds something like the quote "The fool hath said in his heart, 'There is no God' - I realize that no harm was intended. But when posting it on a site where one knows there are some that do not believe in God, it does sort of hint that since you believe in this passage, you too consider people such as myself a fool. '. Gentle sigh.

(And example in reverse would be if I added a 'signature' that said something like, 'religious people can't think for themselves'. That would be horribly insulting, even if I believed it - which I don't).

Re: "Are you saying that someone that believes psalm 14:1 can't be happy and content?"

Of course many Christians and people of many other Faiths are happy and content. But my happy and content friends who believe in God are just that - happy and content within themselves and their own Faith - enough to accept that not all must share that same belief without desperately trying to convince others that they are 'wrong' and themselves 'right'.

- - - -

Our Bleeping is such a wonderful place to have varied debates and can be such fun. But while I could be wrong, I suspect many members, including many new members, may have been frightened off from participating with the worry they may be 'attacked' in some way, here within our SpeakEasy. If we all promise to 'play nice', will you come and join us? Everyone's input is just as important - and we'd love to have you!

According to Wikipedia, There are between 0.9 and 1.4 billion Muslims..., so if even a small portion of them, say 10%, support the extremist views, that's a lot of folks that are spreading hate and discontent around the world.

The problem with the Nazi Germany analogy is that it was initially focused primarily in one country.

Right now, to borrow a phrase:

The sun never sets on Islamic Extremism.

LMAO @ Frank Graham hate-mongering. Interesting how an Atheist's position is instead of remarking on the articles posted, retaliate against Christianity using an islamic propagandists site. That is just beautiful. Just because I am naturally curious...did you actually read the quotes from the people listed Mara?

I read through the site (there isn't much.) And its just got me laughing.....He thinks Jesus advocates terrorism...he uses the example of a parable that Jesus is telling. (Shows that the author of the site has no idea what a parable is.) He thinks Jesus commanded His disciples to... "But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over themâ€â€�bring them here and kill them in front of me." (Luke 19:26-27)

Just one example.

More...
"Muslims believe in all Prophets sent by Allah, and so do not misuse or misinterpret the religious texts of other faiths in order to defame them.(oops...small lie.) Even in recent times, Muslims have and are facing genocidal campaigns in Bosnia, Kosova, Chechnia, Kashmir, and Palestine (who is committing the genocide?) - but they have not questioned Judaism and Christianity. (does that need a comment? Ok, maybe...sorry, I don't see Christian and Jewish backpack homicide bombers running into markets and blowing themselves up.) Such spirit needs to be reciprocated."

Bold comments are mine.

Re: "Interesting how an Atheist's position is instead of remarking on the articles posted, retaliate against Christianity using an islamic propagandists site. That is just beautiful".

Okay, I must confess I'm smiling while sitting here typing this as in reality, I do think that site is a "beautiful" one. Although I suspect the comment wasn't made in a kind way, I'm afraid I'm childlike in many ways and can be darn near impervious to sarcasm - gentle grin!

I didn't find a single comment at the site urging people to "kill infidels". Rather, it struck me as someone trying to come to terms with a few select, named, people that, in his or her opinion, are the cause of so much misunderstanding and hate. (And I must say, after reading a few articles by most mentioned, these people do seem to be 'rallying the troops' to intolerance and even hate, rather than trying to find the common good between people - again, just my opinion.

I do ask for something from you though, jwinathome ... please do not tar all Atheists with one brush. Anymore than all Christians should be or all Muslims tarred with one brush either. The position I take is mine and mine alone - and for myself, I like peace - and honestly don't care who preaches it.

Did find it interesting that the site was found to be a "islamic propagandists site". While you're certainly entitled to your opinion, I find it wonderful that no one has even said that all the quotes from the Bible are considered from a 'Christian propagandist's source'. I don't feel that way, nor do I feel that way when any Faith is trying to come to terms with the ugliness of our poor world.

- - -



although there were some quotes from their own Holy book. (Imagine how offensive it would be if someone were to say that the Bible is merely a 'Christian propagandist's source'.

Um.... Mara I dont know what to say without being insulting here. I am not going to attack anyone for the way they believe but that doesnt make them right either. Everyone can believe the way they want. They can think they can fly and jump off a building and die but they are free to think that way.
I want to say more but I dont want to make the mods mad nor make myself look hateful so its very hard to pick the right words here. We can talk more on this sure.



We follow the Bible as Christians. We have free will we are not forced to do it. When something is right do you do the opposite? When you read a instruction manual do you do it in reverse? Dont think so, unless you are stupid. You still can do it that way but it wont work.

I saw this saying on a christian email once:
I'd rather live my life believing in God and find out there was none when I died than live my life like there wasn't a God and then find out there was.

I have seen Jesus work in the lives of my family and friends. People healed of cancer and even raised from the dead(seen on a christian broadcasting station).People do not just grow arms and legs ever yet a Christian missionary went to Africa and prayed for a person who was born without arms or legs and minutes later when he got through praying the person walked out of the tent with arms and legs.

The Bible shows so much. It predicted the future many years ago and was 100% correct in what would happen. You may have seen the website of the things predicted in the Bible I have posted.

Mara why do you not believe in God?

Also what was the comments that the Muslims considered hateful from the Christian Preachers?

People have said the Bible is propaganda, and say it now, and will always say it. I don't take offense to it. '

I certainly wasn't painting "all atheists" as anything. The site is propaganda. I urge you to follow the links and read about the authors. It is an attack (a sad one). See the above example.

I understand you advocate nothing but peace....so I will ask once again. What is the proper resolution to the middle-eastern conflicts? There has to be a tangible route to peace in your mind. What is it?

Maybe you might post the hateful "rallying of the troops" that you saw as well.

Thanks.

Lets take a look at the fundamentals....

"The final two verses of the Fatiha (1st Surah) asks Allah: “Show us the straight path, the path of those whom Thou hast favoured; not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray.” The traditional Islamic understanding of this is that the “straight path” is Islam — cf. Islamic apologist John Esposito’s book Islam: The Straight Path. The path of those who have earned Allah’s anger are the Jews, and those who have gone astray are the Christians."

Taking this in perspective..."If you’re a pious Muslim who prays the five requisite daily prayers of Islam, you will recite the Fatiha seventeen times in the course of those prayers."

So from the "beginning" you can certainly see an overtone of the ideal of allah towards Jews and Christians. In fact, many translations of the Qu'ran today have "Jews" and "Christians" parenthesized in the passage. (Funny no mention of any other theologies.) Remember, pious muslims pray this 17 times throughout their 5 required daily prayers. For those that may argue that this is not a correct translation...using the Qur'an...."The Jews have earned Allah’s anger by rejecting Muhammad (2:87-90), and the Christians have gone astray by holding to the divinity of Christ (5:72)."


More to come....

Apparently I'm one of the few Christians with an open mind. Hold your tempers because im going to make you all mad probably (go ahead and flame if you must but this is the truth and someone needs to say it.)

1) Every religion is wrong. Religions are created by man. Period. End of story. No discussion.
2) Faith is true. Your faith that guides you should not be formed by what your Pastor, Preacher, Priest, Prayer Leader, Shamen, (side note: anyone else noticed that most of these words start with "P") or what ever says. Your faith should be determined by what you yourself have discovered reading all of the Holy Texts (Koran, all of the translations of the Bible, Torrah, Buddhist teachings, Confucianism, Bushido) you can get your hands on.
3) Your faith is what connects you to your "higher power". Everyone has one including Atheists. It doesnt have to be a God it can be humanity in general but everyone has one.
4) Religion is nothing but a set of rules designed by the elite to keep the masses in check. The Sumarians had religion before the Jews did and it was used to keep the masses in check as every religion has been used since. It consists of a Hierarchy that one can only hope to attain but realistically has no hope of ever attaining.

There, with that said your probably wondering how I can associate myself as a Christian and a Southern Baptist. It's easy I believe in Jesus Christ as my savior and find that I have most of my core beliefs in common with the SBC. However, I do not take every thing that any preacher says as the truth. I do my own research to find the truth.

One final thing. I went to the church where I was raised on Mothers Day to see my Grandmother. On my way out the doors after service the Preacher asked me "Have you come to see that our religion is right yet?" (this stems from a conversation we had when I was 16, when I left the church) My reply "Bleep, your religion. I have my faith."

Hope no one minds but rather than make one individual post too long, will spit it up - making me guilty of 'double posting'.

When I say that I can understand a people objecting to things said by the people mentioned earlier, I say it because whether intended or not, it seems that certain people within any Faith can not only be intolerance towards others but indeed, perhaps inadvertently, incite others to hate or even to violence – not just against other religions but against people who simply don’t feel as they do about things.

While I am not saying any of the below people are guilty of inciting others to hate or violence, I honestly don't see them as being guilty of kindness or tolerance.

Just a few examples (and if one wishes to go to each person’s website or reliable sources, many more quotes can be found):

Ann Coulter:

Example 1 – On Islamic extremists: “We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity”. (National Review Online, September 2001).

Example 2 – "I think the government should be spying on all Arabs, engaging in torture as a televised spectator sport, dropping daisy cutters wantonly throughout the Middle East, and sending liberals to Guantanamo". (http://www.nndb.com/people/474/000022408/)

Example 3 - "[Canadians] better hope the United States doesn't roll over one night and crush them. They are lucky we allow them to exist on the same continent."

Pat Robertson:

“Ladies and gentlemen, we have to recognize that Islam is not a religion. It is a worldwide political movement meant on domination of the world. And it is meant to subjugate all people under Islamic law." He characterized the American Muslim community as "Islam light" and went on to say Muslims "want to take over and we want to impose Sharia on you. And before long, ladies are going to be dressed in burqas and whatever garments they would put on them, and next thing you know, men are going to be allowed to have wife-beating and you'll be beheading adulterers and so on and so forth." (Source: http://mediamatters.org/items/200706120009 … also contains video)

David Chilton:

“The god of Judaism is the devil. The Jew will not be recognized by God as one of His chosen people until he abandons his demonic religion and returns to the faith of his fathers - the faith which embraces Jesus Christ and His Gospel.
Source: The Days of Vengeance: An Exposition of the Book of Revelation (1984)

Gary DeMar:
The long term goal [is] the execution of abortionists and parents who hire them. If we argue that abortion is murder, then we must call for the death penalty.
Jerry Falwell:
“I think Mohammed was a terrorist”.
60 Minutes, October 6, 2002


I don't add these to cause an argument - I simply am trying to say that for each Faith there can be extremists.

When I posted earlier, CGM - I was simply trying to make a point - as gently as possible - that one can, even inadvertently, 'insult' others. (Re the posting of 'Fools don't believe in God'). When quoting this on a public forum, it could sound like everyone who does not believe as you do is a "fool").

For all Faiths, there are some who pick and choose which verses/quotes from their own particular 'holy books' to live by. Some, from all Faiths choose kindness, peace and tolerance towards others. And others, 'not so much'. And then in the extreme, are just those - extremists. All quoting from their 'holy books' and all convinced that they are right.

My idea of peace is so simple. Each Faith and each person within each Faith and each person simply walking the face of this earth do two things. Tolerate others whether it be another's Faith or lack of, if no harm is being done to others ... and secondly, do no harm to others - either mentally or physically.

As to "why" I'm "don't believe in God" - well, to be honest, I have as many varied reasons for my own lack of Faith as many likely do for having their Faith.

And to be brutality honest - I find the endless 'attacks' from those of one Faith against others of another Faith - and I include most Faiths in this statement - downright scary. To teach intolerance, whether it be regarding religious matters or matters in general - doesn't strike me, personally, as being something a God, if I felt He existed, would be happy with. But then who am I to say - after all, I'm an atheist. Huge smile.

BlackSpyder, I read your words with interest ... how very odd that anyone claiming to represent his God would take an attitude like this. (The "right" religion). I do admire you both for being a Christian and for having an open mind about letting others belief - or not believe - as they choose. And to simply go about life trying to do good and no harm.

I doubt that anyone would seriously maintain, MaraM, that religions have no extremists, as do many political viewpoints for that matter, especially as politics seems to have supplanted religious faith for a great many people in the last few centuries. Religious extremists have existed since recorded history, and it is history that eventually records their names in its pages for what they were.
What certainly bothers me is the extent to which these individuals can attract a following and cause otherwise "decent" people to abandon reason, temperance, and tolerance to the point of committing the most extreme acts against their fellow human beings. What scrap of paper can equal a human life?
Regards,
John

Thanks Mara, for posting those quotes. Now I ask the question....can you find any incidents of physical altercations, acts of terrorism, anything of that sort? Keep in mind that Ann Coulter gets daily death threats (same as Pat Robertson) and has been assaulted simply for exercising her 1st amendment right. I must have missed the Franklin Graham quotes, the ones showing he is a hate-mongering Christian.

Let me say about Ann, I do think she is extreme, and many times cringe at some of the things she says, but I can honestly say I have never seen a news report about her strapping a bomb to a child she knows, and sending them into a group of soldiers. She says many of the things she says to aggravate the "left" in our country, and that seems her prerogative.

I know Pat Robertson has said some zaney things (many of which he asked for forgiveness and repented for), but again, have never seen reports of him blowing up a local Planned Parenthood.

I have no problem with people saying "mohammed was a terrorist"...as it is a matter of opinion. However, that opinion can be easily deduced by simply looking at the Qur'an and Hadith.

I will say that I strongly disagree with David Chilton's statement about the Jewish God. The statements seem viciously anti-semitic. The Bible offers Jews a Hope for the future. After all, they are His chosen people.

Pat Robertson's statement is echoed around the world, not only by Christians. Ask the average "extremist" muslim and they will tell you that their goal is to impose Sharia Law. It is all but commanded in the Qur'an. Wife beating is a common thing, so are honor killings. Again, all but commanded in the Qur'an.

name='jgweed' date='Jul 9 2007, 07:01 PM' post


Interesting point John. Except humanism teaches that humans are nothing but animals. In fact, atheism teaches...

"Atheism is a doctrine that states that nothing exists but natural phenomena (matter), that thought is a property or function of matter, and that death irreversibly and totally terminates individual organic units. This definition means that there are no forces, phenomena, or entities which exist outside of or apart from physical nature, or which transcend nature, or are “super” natural, nor can there be. Humankind is on its own."

Doesn't sound like a whole lot of value to me...but that's my opinion.

God teaches that we were fearfully and wonderfully knit together.

There is definately a difference between "saying extreme things"

and "doing extreme things", that's for sure.

Reading this Thread is enlightening and educational.

Having been born and raised, along with five siblings, of an Irish Protestant father and an English Catholic mother, I gradually "lost faith" with Christianity and I shunned Mormonism etc., along with all other religions.

I don't need to have a "Faith" at all, but I am happily learning to become a better humanitarian - a calmer and more tollerant person, if you like - (even though I was pretty civilised and non-judgemental before and in any case), thanks to the teachings of Buddha.

If only other Prophets (or as is more likely, their interpreters) had been so wise and far-sighted.

Jweed, your words, especially, “individuals can attract a following and cause otherwise "decent" people to abandon reason, temperance, and tolerance to the point of committing the most extreme acts against their fellow human beings” touched my heart. Because that is what I find so frightening – so many seem to think that no matter what is done, if done in the name of their particular religion, it’s just fine.

Examples of this would be Abortion Clinic bombings done by people in the name of their God, ‘Christian Activists’ trying to detonate an explosive devise inside a Texas church. Source: www.cleburnetimesreview.com.

And although JohnWho is correct in saying, “There is definitely a difference between ‘saying extreme things’ and ‘doing extreme things” to me, at least, saying extreme things can and likely does lead to more intolerance between mankind. While I suspect it would be virtually impossible to attribute direct blame for much of the horror done to each other directly as these people’s doorsteps –equally, it would be virtually impossible to prove that many people haven’t acted upon their words either.

In fact, (and I hope I have these words correct), I think it was a sociology professor at the Idaho State University who said something like …

‘Most Christian terrorists are religiously inspired to be just that, religious terrorists – even though most mainstream Christians would consider what they do horrible. (Ergo, extremists). If Christians take umbrage at the juxtapositions of the words ‘Christian’ and ‘terrorist’, this may give them some idea how Muslims feel when they constantly hear the term ‘Islamic terrorism’.

When I think of a ‘good’ person, I don’t base it on Faith or lack thereof. Rather I think of someone as SebD said, “trying to learn to become a better humanitarian …a more tolerant person”.

MaraM, with all due respect and discretion....I really think you are grasping for something that just isn't there. Again, I never saw the question answered.

What physical act of violence did those people you quoted, commit? When have they committed acts of terrorism? Its easy to say "there are extremists in all 'religions'." But its even easier to point out the clear difference between the extreme elements.

The semantic argument doesn't hold a lot of weight. You see, when you peruse the various media sources....the terrorists are self-proclaimed muslims....thus rightly called "Islamic terrorists." It doesn't get much simpler than that.


Maybe Mara, you might like to point out what happens to Christians when they "leave" the faith, as opposed to muslims. I'll give you a hint....one gets killed based on a command in their "holy book", the other doesn't.

"Sheikh Ahmad Nutty of the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, writes: "The stated requirements of marriage in Islam are as follows: Full consent of both partners to the marriage, expressing the above consent through ijab (offer) and qabul (acceptance), finally the presence of two reliable witnesses. Apart from the above, in the case of females, their guardian's consent has been considered essential for the validity of marriage according to the majority of imams and scholars."


In 2004 the UN reported that as many as 57% of marriages in Afghanistan involved girls under 16. Some were only nine years old. In 2005, the US State Department quoted the UN special reporter on violence against women, who said that "between 60% and 80% of marriages in Afghanistan are forced marriages which give women no right to refuse. Many of those marriages, especially in the rural areas, involve girls below the age of 15."
(Stats from here.)

An example of an honor killing.

"Banaz Mahmod Babakir Agha was a beautiful young woman of a family who had migrated to Britain in 1998 from the Kurdish region of Iraq. Banaz, aged 20, lived in Mitcham, south London. On Monday, June 11, 2007 her father and her uncle were found guilty of killing her. Her father had ordered the killing, and his brother had carried it out. A shoelace was tied around Banaz's neck, strangling her. Her decomposing body was found in Handsworth, Birmingham, 70 miles away, on April 27 last year, three months after she had "disappeared"."........."The reason for Banaz being killed was because she had a boyfriend, 28-year old Rahmat Suleimi, a Kurd from Iran."....."Even though British police did not take Banaz's appeals seriously while she was alive, her death spurred a massive police inquiry. There were 47 searches of houses, 22 arrests, 779 statements were taken. Sixteen people were bailed to reappear before police. It is thought that several people who had been involved in the plot to kill the young woman had left the country."

A note on Humanism

While "humanism" incorporates different perspectives, to say that "humanism teaches that humans are nothing but animals" seems a bit reductionist and ignores the historical foundations of the "movement" that in the first instance looked to the Greek (and Roman) philosophers as exemplars of how to think and how to go about living, and the many Christian humanists (one modern example is Maritian )since the Renaissance who would have argued against the "nothing but."

One general definition of humanism that seems acceptable is found in the Wikipedia article of that name:

"Humanism is a broad category of ethical philosophies that affirm the dignity and worth of all people, based on the ability to determine right and wrong by appeal to universal human qualities—particularly rationality. Humanism is a component of a variety of more specific philosophical systems, and is incorporated into several religious schools of thought. Humanism entails a commitment to the search for truth and morality through human means in support of human interests. In focusing on the capacity for self-determination, humanism rejects the validity of transcendental justifications, such as a dependence on faith, the supernatural, or divinely revealed texts. Humanists endorse universal morality based on the commonality of the human condition, suggesting that solutions to human social and cultural problems cannot be parochial."

I think the mental leap---at least for me--- from a special definition of humanism to atheism and its implied correlate,lack of value, is extremely quick and tenuous. I think a reading of many of the writers generally accepted as Humanist, from More to Sartre, would tend to show them deeply involved in moral issues and the quest for truth.

Regards,
John

Okay John...the problem....the humanism you are talking about is called "Cultural Humanism" from what I know. Almost like a humanist denomination, if you will. The push here in the states is that of a "Secular Humanism." I don't think there can be a "general" description of humanism, as there are so many sects of beliefs....most of which are indeed based on what most people would refer to as some sort of faith.

By the humanists associations own words..."Religion is that which serves the personal and social needs of a group of people sharing the same philosophical world view."

Another example of an "honor" killing....just one of thousands of examples.

"Heshu's father was sentenced to life imprisonment on September 29, 2003. Detective Inspector Brent Hyatt, of the Metropolitan Police's Serious Crime Directorate said: "Abdalla Yones killed her to shield his so-called honor. A few months before her death, she had been taken to Kurdistan to be married off. But the marriage didn't take place because the groom's family discovered she was not a virgin. Abadalla brought Heshu back and decided to eliminate her. The family approved of the crime.""

It's not that long ago this was practiced in many "Civilized" places, not only that but it's a practice that isn't just to Islam.It depends on your culture, and where you live.

Jwinathome I issue you a challange, go out and find something good about Islam, and Muslims in the community, and report back here, you can either Accept or Not, however if you do not accept to me that means you are really only looking for one side, therefore you cannot call yourself a learned individual. You keep saying "I'm not saying all Muslims are bad" yet every post in here has been about something bad about Islam, prove to me that you do care about the feelings of others and such would care enough to post up something good about Islam or Muslims in the community. Sure Islam has some faults, , but so does every other religion and civilization out there.

You are right. I do not believe that every muslim is bad. However, I believe that the fundamental teaching of Islam is. I'm using examples to illustrate my opinion. I never called myself a learned individual. I agree that every religion probably has some "faults" within the people. However, again, I believe the fundamental beliefs of Islam are bad. What does posting something good about islam have anything to do with caring about people's feelings? You have the freedom to post in here as well USSR. So, with all due respect, please do your own work, do not instruct others what to do.

I think there is a world of difference between Humanism (if you will, Cultural Humanism) and what passes for so-called Secular Humanism or any Humanistic Society. Secular Humanism seems currently to be simply pejorative in its use as opposed to a term that is clearly defined, and to consider any Society or Association to be anything more than that, or representative of Humanism in general is to fall into the same trap as those who take one particular sect of Christianity as representative of all Christians (or perhaps more to the current thread's turn, Moslems). The best way, or so it seems to me, to avoid this trap is to consequently direct one's questions or arguments or criticisms to particular beliefs of an identified sect, and not to the entire generality.
Cheers,
John

Well, if it pleases you, I will be more specific in the sect of humanism that I am referring to.

ok and I quote

Which means to me: you ASSUME you know everything about Islam and therefore what ever you say MUST in fact be right because you are a learned person. Many things you have posted are true, yet your only posting one side of the story, which I think is almost as bad as lying.

As for peoples feelings, if you don't want to offend others, or you want to be respectful you should learn a little and see both sides of any situation, to atleast see where there ideas are comming from, for example I agree that not all muslims are bad, and yes some are bad truely, and do terrible things, yet I can see that side even though I don't support saying "All Muslims are bad" so I can see atleast from where it is you're coming from.

As for "making you do my work" that was my intent, but rather to have you learn and understand both sides, to truely be a wise person you must be able to see things from differend perspectives. At this point in time I don't feel comftorable with posting in this section any more because to me what you're effectively saying is "no matter how much good there is bod is going to outwiegh it" therefore I don't need to waste my time attempting to feed someone who rejects the spoon. I respect you Jwinathome, and I think we have to agree to dissagree with eachother, I hold nothing against you at all. I just don't want to keep arguing at this time with people about Islam.

ussr...the point is not to get frustrated and quit. The point is to debate with ideals. Again, my core belief is that islam, fundamentally, is a bad thing. Again, I am using examples to illustrate why I think that. I have admitted that there are people out there that detest this aspect of islam. Unfortunately, they are few and far between...I don't want you to just quit posting in a thread. Use the resources out there to show why you feel the way you do.

I am in no way politically correct, but I do hold the feelings of others in great consideration. (I'm sure that will bring many laughs.)

I have put a great deal of time and effort into learning about islam, talking with people, going and visiting with groups of muslims. (I still meet with them on occasion...and we get along wonderfully. We carry on debates on various things.)

I welcome you to illustrate the good of islam that can outweigh what is bad.

I just think the discussion would benefit from distinctions that help everyone talk about the same things, jwinathome, and not misunderstand one another because each person means different things especially when the terms are very general.
Cheers,
John

Definitely John. I will be more clear with my references to humanism.

I for one appreciate your input into this thread 'ussr1943' and wouldn't like you to stop Posting.I want to hear opinions from all Members.It's time to give the Muslims credit where credit is due and not put them all in one Basket,as John says.
I am interested about Religious Cults or Sects and Religious off shoots,Good and Bad. Many Members have stopped Posting in Speakeasy as MaraM has said.There are only a few Regular Posters left,and would like to see Members take other Members feelings into account before pressing the Add Reply Button.I can't say it much plainer than that.I sincerely hope the other Members who have given Speakeasy the flick will reconsider and start posting again.

"I have been ordered by God to fight with people till they bear testimony to the fact that there is no God but Allah and that Mohammed is his messenger, and that they establish prayer and pay Zakat (money). If they do it, their blood and their property are safe from me" (see Bukhari Vol. I, p. 13).

Supposedly said by mohammed himself. History shows this is exactly what he did.

A story about mohammed...
"When Muhammad and his followers were about to attack Mecca to subjugate it to Islam, his adherents arrested Abu Sufyan, one of Mecca's inhabitants. They brought him to Muhammad. Muhammad told him: "Woe to you, O Abu Sufyan. Is it not time for you to realize that there is no God but the only God?" Abu Sufyan answered: "I do believe that." Muhammad then said to him: "Woe to you, O Abu Sufyan. Is it not time for you to know that I am the apostle of God?" Abu Sufyan answered: "By God, O Muhammad, of this there is doubt in my soul." Then Abbas who was present with Muhammad told Abu Sufyan: "Woe to you! Accept Islam and testify that Muhammad is the apostle of God before your neck is cut off by the sword." Thus he professed the faith of Islam and became a Muslim."
Sources....
*Ibn Hisham, part 4, p. 11 ("Biography of the Prophet")
*"The Chronicle of the Tabari", part 2, p. 157
*Ibn Kathir, "The Prophetic Biography", part 3, p. 549, and "The Beginning and the End"
*Ibn Khaldun, the rest of part 2, p. 43 and on
*Al-Sira al-Halabiyya, Vol. 3. p. 18
*Al Road Al Anf, part 4, p. 90, by Al Sohaily

Surah 9:29)

"Fight against those who have been given the scripture but believe not in Allah nor the last day, and who forbid not that which Allah has forbidden by His messenger, and who follow not the religion of truth, until they pay the tribute willingly, being brought into submission"

How would one personally interpret this passage? (see surah 9 for full context.)

Surah 5:51)

" O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk."

Surah 5:80)

Thou seest many of them making friends with those who disbelieve. Surely ill for them is that which they themselves send on before them: that Allah will be wroth with them and in the doom they will abide.

Re: "I believe the fundamental beliefs of Islam are bad".

If one turned this around and said, "I believe the fundamental beliefs of Christianity are bad”. Could this not be interpreted as a ‘slap’ against someone’s faith – but because what someone believes is surely a huge part of the essence of whom they are, a ‘slap’ against the person too?

Re: “What does posting something good about islam have anything to do with caring about people’s feelings?”

Please see above. Gentle smile. And surely into each Faith there is both ‘good’ and ‘bad’ or teachings that can and have been manipulated by many to serve their own purposes.

That aside, when some say “Mohammad was a terrorist”, surely the same could be said for “God was a terrorist”. How? Simply by taking ‘teachings’ out of historical context.

Examples:

From Old Testament – “I tell you that to everyone who has, more shall be given, but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. But these enemies of mine, who do not want me to reign over them, bring them here and slay them in my presence”. (Luke 19:26-27)

From New Testament – “Now therefore, kill every male amoung the little ones, and kill every women who has known man intimately. But all girls who have not known man intimately spare for yourselves”. (Numbers 31:17-18)

And there are so, so many incidences of violence in the Bible - should they, each and every one of them be taken literally?

As DSTM said, "It's time to give the Muslims credit where credit is due and not put them all in one Basket". Nor should we put all Christians or all people of any Faith in one basket. Not all 'fundamentalists' and surely not all 'extremists' for I suspect within each Faith there is many levels of each catagory.

- - - - -

When one, even with the best of intentions, asks another to "prove" good things that their religion believes or has done or is capable of doing, may we remember that religion is based on Faith. For instance, if a member were asked to "prove" what missionaries have said to be true - while I could be wrong, I would think of that request as crossing the 'thin line' between debate and the worry of being the cause of even a hair's breadth of doubt to emerge in a strong Faith.

Oops, sorry Mara, I guess you got your testament captions mixed up.....and as I said before....I wouldn't suspect you would actually read the chapter in its context....but Jesus was telling a parable in Luke 19:26-27....the king he was referring to was the subject of the parable....

Everything I posted was well within context. Of course, rather than illustrating that it wasn't you chose to speak against Christianity. I don't personally see that as a way to "refute" what was being said about Mohammed.

Im going to hold my sweet baby boy now...I will reply to the rest tomorrow morning.
Still waiting on those acts of violence committed by the Christian extremists you quoted earlier.

An interesting question to ponder....do you know the significance of the Old Testament compared to the New Testament?

Im really not concerned with people calling God a terrorist. In fact, I welcome the opinion.

I never said Mohammed is a terrorist, but I think I did say that one could easily draw that conclusion based on islamic writings of mohammed's life.

There are so many quotes from within the Bible one can make to show violence within the texts. I can, as I’m sure many could, quote dozens of them. But do I need to. I doubt it because most of us are quite familiar with so many quotes that, on face value, could be used to ‘prove’ that Christianity is based on the ‘teachings of a Terrorist’ and the fundamental Christian Faith is “bad”.

Just as others can endless quote texts from many other Faiths that will ‘prove’ those other Faiths are fundamentally ‘bad’. But why should they. Rather, ‘attack’ the extremists in all groups, but leave the ‘fundamental’ faith of each group alone - for to attack another’s fundamental faith is to show an ugly side to one’s own faith, perhaps.

In the last few posts, in my own way I’ve tried to show just how offensive and hurtful certain statements can be. By turning certain statements ‘around’, those same statements can, and I bet in many cases, are offensive to those of the other faith.

Now, on a truly personal level …

When any innocent of any Faith is ‘attacked’ – when any innocent that has no faith is ‘attacked’ – sometimes a gentle reminder that even if unintentional, people’s feelings can and are being hurt works. Sometimes it doesn’t. Sometimes trying to show, by turning words around, can work as an example of how easy it is to offend or hurt another’s feelings. Sometimes it doesn’t.

Turning into "New Millennium Tribal War" in here (see Prophecy by Soulfly Lyrics for the idea behind it)

This passage is from the New Testament and is the parable of the king and his 10 servants. you did mis quote it a bit there. I'll type this straight out of my bible: " 'Yes', the king replied, 'and to those who use well what they are given, even more will be given. But from those who do nothing, even what little they have will be taken away. And as for these enemies of mine who didn't want me to be their king-bring them in and execute them right here in front of me'" you are taking the las few lines of a much larger parable out of context, I'm afraid. The whole parable is in Luke 19:11-27, and was used to correct the impression that the Kingdom of God would begin right away.


This passage you quoted correctly, but it is in the Old Testament. It is also not in context. This is taken from the record of when God commanded Moses to punish the Midianites for leading them into idolatry. You should have at least included verse 16 to at least give this some semblance of it's proper context. to borrow one of your phrases "gentle sigh". The Midianites had tricked Israel into sexual sin and the worship of idols. It needs to be pointed out the God punished His own people for their sin first. that used His people to punish the ones that had lead them astray. Also verse 18 says " only the ones that are virgins may live; you may keep them for your selves" (emphasis mine).

I'll have to look for the exact passage, but the bible does say that sinners will be punished, but the punishment of the one who tempts a person into sinning will be severe enough that it would be better that that person not to have been born. The whole point is this. The Midianites were deliberately looking for a way to destroy Israel. The punishment was deserved. Had they just let Israel pass through their land to get to their destination, the Midiandites would not have been destroyed. The Israelites were just seeking safe passage to the Promised Land.

As I have stated many times. If you are going to site a verse of scripture, please site the whole passage and not just a few verses out of context. I ask all those posting on this thread to do the same whether quoting from the Bible, Torah, Quran, or any holy book of any religion. I view this thread as a great opportunity to share my Faith with the people of this forum, not to brow beat them into the ground. I will respect your Faiths and try not to misquote from your scripture (or lack there of in the case of atheism. No insult intended). I just ask for the same in return. USSR1943 and I had this happen on another forum. when he pointed out my error, I edited my post and apologized.

People of different Faiths can get along and discuss and debate their differences in a civil and polite manner without getting combative.


BTW: USSR1943, here is an example of a Muslim doing good that was on a major media outlet. It was on the Oriley Factor on Fox News. The show was about the attempt by the ACLU to remove any Christian symbols or references to Christianity from any public school Christmas event or function, but yet allow Jewish and Islamic symbols during their holidays. Oriley had two people on debating this. One was a representative from the Anti Defamation League (a jewish organization). The other was from the National Islamic council in America. The rep from the Anti Defamation league was arguing that all religious references be removed from all schools at once. The Islamic council rep was arguing that if the Jews and the Muslims were to be allowed to have their symbols in the schools for their holidays, why should the Christians be barred from having the same thing.

Hi seafox 14 and welcome back!

Point taken. I obviously worded my post very poorly indeed as I was trying to show that words/sentences from any text taken out of context change the meaning/intent completely.

Your words, [b]" People of different Faiths can get along and discuss and debate their differences in a civil and polite manner without getting combative", are heartening. /b].

Often, when participating in this and other threads, I want to weep. Not from people themselves and their beliefs but from words we humans use to express ourselves that can so often hurt and offend, even when none was intended.

I hope many truly do know that what I've said in the past is true - that while a non-believer, I would fight to the end to defend the right of all to believe in whatever they choose and long as one does no harm to another.

So when I say this, please know it is said with respect for all those that have Faith but may have a tad of difficulty with other's.

We can't change the world - nor do we always have the 'right' to try. People have a right - a civil right - to believe in whatever they choose, to have personal preferences in lifestyles, friends, food and their Faith or lack of one. And so often our world has a tendency to think of people as 'groups' rather than individuals. If harm is being done to another, blame the individual causes that harm, not the group of people as a whole.

One thing sticks with me from when I too was a Christian - any person and every person can, as an individual, be a representative of his or her own Faith by being kind and tolerant of others different than ourselves - as each thing we do or say stands as a witness of not just ourselves and who we are, but of our Faith too.
- - -
Yes, I do know the difference between the Old and New Testaments. And yes, I still believe that anyone, with Faith or without, that willingly incites others to intolerance is far from a good person. In fact, quite the opposite. Just my opinion but even as a non-believer, I do have a right to it
- - -
Thanks, BlackSpyder re: :Turning into 'New Millennium Tribal War in here' " - huge gentle smile!

Personally, I think I'm better suited to participating in a thread that showed only good things that people around the world do for each other, regardless of their Faith or lack of one.

Ouch!!! This thread is alot hotter than I thought it would be. When I saw the title I was hoping for a discussion of the worlds diverse religious groups and the chance to possibly learn more about some of them. Little did I know how vehement it would turn out to be and more of a "My religion is better than yours" bashing party. Until I worked my way through the post I must admit I was exhausted! What a session some of you have had at each other.
I am a Christian and I make no apology for it but I also respect the rights of others to practice what ever religion they choose and the rights of those who choose not to be affiliated with a religion at all.
I realize that coming into Speak Easy is a lot more serious than anything you are liable to find in General Chat but I sure didn't expect to find the disrespect and disregard for other peoples feelings that I found here. As I stated earlier, silly me, I was hoping for the opportunity to learn more about the practices and beliefs of the many religions of the world and how others felt about them but I sure didn't expect the display that I found here. Oh well, maybe another time.

The point is Mara, the verses you use are easily explained to someone that is actually interested in knowing. The passages I used from the Qur'an were in context, and they are very transparent.

Iodine, who is saying their religion is better than someone else's? I think a good thing would be adding to the conversation.

By the way...I still don't see the acts of violence committed by the Christians quoted earlier in this thread. They were used as examples of extremists comparable to islamic extremists.

See Mara, you could have used all these opportunities to point out the wonderful things mohammed did in his life. By all means, do so.

Nothing you have said about Christianity is offensive. "God is a terrorist" is not offensive. And of course, it is good to substantiate claims like that.

What does one have to do with the other?

I hope many truly do know that what I've said in the past is true - that while a non-believer, I would fight to the end to defend the right of all to believe in whatever they choose and long as one does no harm to another. - MaraM

Fight to the end, meaning death? "long as one does no harm to another." I don't understand what you mean by that.

Something interesting found upon looking through the qur'an (in chronological order, the first 50 surahs) is that mohammed may have been confused about whom his god was, or what to call him. They break down this way...

*Only Lord - 68, 92, 89, 94, 100, 108, 105, 114, 97, 106, 75 (11 Suras)
*Ar-Rahman, Lord - 55, 36 (2 Suras)
*Ar-Rahman, Allah, Lord - 20
*Allah, Lord - 96, 73, 74, 81, 87, 53, 85, 50, 38, 7, 72, 25, 35, 56, 26, 27, 28, 17 (18 Suras)

(Ar-Rahman was also the Jewish word Rahmana which was a name for God in the Talmudic period. \Noldeke: The Koran, The Origins of the Koran, p.53)

(Allah, a deity (a moon god--that is why the symbols placed at every mosque is a crescent moon) at that time was the supreme God of the pagans.)

According to ancient writings, mohammed was born and raised of pagan parents. (One quick reference...Hisham al-Kalbi, Kitab al-Asnam, p.17)