1. JohnWho, I agree! Here ya go:

2. The reason for the title of the thread is that I find it odd that we as a society make such a huge distinction between animals we defend and animals we slaughter en-masse. If pets of any species are abused in a home, the owners are fined or even put in jail. Yet we slaughter cows, pigs, chickens, ect, without a second though. That's why I can't help but ask, what makes one animal food and another a friend?

I agree that the lines that have been drawn stem from society over many years. The question is: do these lines, as they stand, still apply?

3. Yes, it would appear that creatures eating creatures is part of nature. The fact that creatures consume other creatures in every corner of the natural world and the fact that we are biologically not herbivores (both in our design and our nutritional needs) suggest that humans naturally consume at least some meat. Thus, I am not suggesting that we end our consumption of meat. The real questions I have are these: do we eat too much meat? Do we cause unnecessary pain and suffering on animals in the pursuit of meat? Would the reduction of meat consumption simultaneously allow for healthier lifestyles and better treatment of animals?

Seafox, yeah, that was a bit of a tangent, but we all do that now and then. I certainly go off on tangents myself! Evolution, as a topic, does have several threads at the moment. This reminds me: I am still curious about your thoughts on my latest post on the Evolution: taught as fact thread...



These are actually very good points. The production of meat for food is in fact a very inefficient way to feed people. You mentioned that meat is really about taste and texture, a luxury; I would agree that the amount of meat we consume might fit into your definition, though I would not conclude that we should refrain from eating any meat. Again, I believe that if we ate smaller overall quantities of meat products the demand would be lower and we could therefore procure our meat from smaller operations that are cleaner, organic, and more humane.

Hey, it's a start. PETA, outright telling the general public to stop eating all forms of meat, just isn't going to move their cause forward. People tend to do the opposite of what they are told!



The practice of using pesticides, herbicides, fertilizers, genetic manipulation, ect, are used on crops is an economic problem first and foremost. The reason these methods are used is simple: maximization of production and minimization of cost. The trouble is that the only goal of any industry is ever-increasing profits; producing healthy food for the public is of little concern to the agricultural industry.



Isn't that the truth! I find great irony in this. In the last century, we have moved toward "the future" by using chemicals and genetic manipulation to make crops and livestock more productive. Yet in the end we've made ourselves less healthy! So, we pay extra money for "organic food" ...which is simply food that is produced in the way that humans have always produced it in the past!

I am glad that you have found a path desirable to you and your palate.

However, the same evidence can be used to support the lack of need for legumes, as meat provides our essential amino acids. Thus, it really boils down to preference.

I am trying to gain muscle mass, the amount of vegetables I would have to consume in order to maintain a 1-1.5 gram/pound body weight ratio is enormous. Therefore, meat, being much more dense in protein, is a more desirable choice. It is not for 'flavour and texture', rather it is for sustenance.

Where do you get your creatine from? How many grams of protein do you ingest per day?

We all have different aims. But it is nice to see someone who has taken time to understand the science behind their passions! Yes, bacon can be a will-breaker. I struggle with it in my diet.



Our over-population of the Earth has resulted in these agricultural practices, IMO. As well as being spoiled as a society. Nobody wants any blemishes on their lettuce, and they want nice red/pink meat. Thus, practices have evolved to provide these aesthetic comforts at the expense of wholesomeness.

All animals are a possible energy source IMO. Although living on bear meat would really be a drag (very greasy), I am determined to survive. I refuse cannibalism, but I would eat my dog if I had to. But this is not pleasure killing, it has an end in keeping me alive to help my fellow human beings. Killing for the sake of death is simply twisted.

I don't know that I'd say we've become less healthy. We do have a problem with obesity and cholesterol, primarily because we crave sweet fatty things; not a problem for when we were a more active species, but it doesn't fit well with our current lifestyle and metabolism.

Still, we're probably healthier now on the whole than we've ever been before, what with eradicating and preventing diseases, and tacking on a good 20-30 years to the average life span.

Disagree. How are we as Nations healthier than ever before with the percentage of our Populations Obese and suffering from Obese related Diseases,more than ever in our History?
The only reason we are living longer, is Doctors now perform lifesaving Operations that were unheard of in previous Generations,along with miracle drugs.Previously we would have simply Died at an earlier age.

I disagree with someone, too.

It's not simply what we eat, but how much that is causing so much problem.

We, at least in the US, have the opportunity and availability to eat healthier than we probably ever have had before.


Too many of us just haven't figured out the correct answer to the question,

"Do you want to supersize that?"

Compare the mortality rates of today to those of a hundred years ago. Of two hundred years ago. Look at how disease was treated back then, if they knew how to treat it at all. Until fairly recently in our medical age, if you came down ill it was believed that the proper treatment was to take a knife and bleed you out for a while.
We still have our health problems to be sure, but our quality of life now is so much better than it used to be that it's not even comparable.

What is the sense of keeping us alive,if we are on medication daily just for the sake of keeping us alive longer than ever before.If we haven't still got Quality of life,I fail to see the point.
What we have to do at an early age is to Get Back to Basics,if you really want to enjoy your old age.
Diet and Exercise are so important,but one is useless without the other,IMHO.
I look for foods that are naturally grown, and look for items with the least amount of chemicals added. Most of these Chemical additives are dangerous to our health in large Quantities.I do the shopping and have gone back to plain simple foods.Near no one I see in food stores ever bothers to read the ingredients,because they are allways in a rush,or plain couldn't be bothered. I dont feel worse for it,and if everybody bothered to do some research on what they are eating,I believe that we would have less Children with ADDHD and less cases of all these different types of Cancers that seem so widespread today.I had bad allergies for years,and since I have cut out most of the food chemicals and additives from my diet,my skin has improved so much that I am near Allergy free.It's worked for me.

I find vegetarians strange...well, just abit. I can understand why you would be put off eating meat, especially after watching that vid from PETA that is in someones sig. But surely thats a different problem altogther? Or maybe im misunderstanding the post.

Heres how I feel on the topic.

As maaany people have pointed out humans are omnivores. No need to go into that too much explaining why we are as others have already done so. The point is, we've adapted to eat either meat or plants. Call ii adaption, evolution, natural selections, whatever you want. You cant deny the fact that we as humans can eat both.

Has anyone considered what our ancestors would have thought on the topic? Im not talking about people say 100 years ago. Im talking about the cave men/woman (to be PC ). Do you think they cared what they ate? How would they react to have food on demand like we do now? If im not mistaken, I belive the indians used to drive whole herds of buffallo off cliffs...Mass food production maybe? (Just to be the devils advocate there)

About the, eating animals with intelligance question, I think that intelligence and instinct can get easily confused. Say a dog, or a cat or a cow or a human sensed danger they/we all get the same "animal" instinct. The whole "Fight or flight" thing. But that doesnt nesseccarily (damn still cant spell that word!) show intelligence. I see intelligence as being able to create things such as art or music, to develop a culture, etc. Maybe im just setting the bar too high though

Does anyone else here think that animals care what they eat? Does a fox care that the rabbit its chasing down is going to be terrified? Does anyone think the python thats finally started to gulp down that...whatever it was could merely be unconsious for the time being? Does anyone think an alligator realises that it is killing its prey in such a horrific way (the whole death roll thing)?

Has anyone here tried beaver? Nope. Nor have I, but i recently watched a programme called Ray mears Bushcraft. He was spending some time with some mountain men as he called them. These people lived off the land, had a mixed diet of both plants and meat. Infact, they had hunted a beaver and had beaver stew. These people got their own food and ate all sorts be it beaver to bear. My point is our views on where the libe should be drawn come from our culture, which i also belive has been bought up. If we had been raised to eat these sorts of things we wouldnt even be haveing this discussion. By the way, this guy caught this beaver and was skinning it, carving it up, etc like a pro. Ray mears then said over a narrative that he was 90 years old!! Thats probably the healthiest 90 year old ive seen so they must be doing something right!!

I've had the 'honour' of eating beaver - but I ate it only because it would have been incredibly rude to refuse dinner. Oddly enough, it wasn't as bad as I thought it was going to be - but surely not something I'd want to eat again unless I was very, very, very hungry - gentle smile.

When I re-read all the posts in this thread, I realized something about myself. Drat! I realized that if an animal is 'cute, cuddly, adorable, sweet' etc, I consider it either a friend or food. (I think cows have wonderfully expressive eyes but unless I've made an actual pet of it, it's meat on the hoof).

The opposite side of the coin for me is obviously if I think some animal is 'yucky' to look at, I'd consider it neither a friend or food. Example, in my great-grandmother's journal, she and her peers ate eels (honestly!) - yuck a million times over.

How every odd I would eat 'cute' and scorn 'yuck'.

The way I see it, non-sentient animals are little better than plants, so "harvesting" them like plants and other resources doesn't bother me, and neither does their treatment. They're dumb animals who will soon be dead anyway, why waste resources so their short lives can be more comfortable? So what if they live in unsanitary conditions, and other so called bad things happen to them, they are merely food, nothing more. Yes, some animals are our friends, and when they are born in an environment that uses them as pets and not as food, then they should be treated with respect deserving of pets. When they are born in animal farms or factory farms, whatever you want to call it, their sole purpose is to grow nice and juicy and then die. So why bother making them "comfortable" if they will soon die? I think it's pointless to care about food-animals beyond dying and becoming my food, and that's my opinion.

I also find it interesting how few people complain about how plants are treated on farms and such, and the few people who do, it's for different reasons. Think of those poor plants getting that nasty pesticide sprayed on them. Sure it may not kill them, but I doubt they like it. So why is it suddenly so horrible when animals who are solely breed for food, dont get the same treatment as your pets? They're not your pets and don't need the respect. The difference between a plant farm and an animal is the harvests at the animal farm are mobile and a little more intelligent than plants.

P.S. I did watch that PETA video in that one person's signature, so I do know how the animals are treated.

Wow. I'm stunned. Respect your right to your opinion, really I do. But yup, I'm stunned.

With Respect solaris32,if everybody had the same outlook on life as You,the World would be a sicker place than it already is.

I most cases animals are taken care of at the Farm Level. They are an Investment to the farmer. The cows on the farm got treated better them our dogs did growing up. Yearly Vet visits Barns,stalls and walkways cleaned daily. Our beef and dairy cows were treated the best they could be while in our hands because if they are deformed and unhealthy then we would be shy on food money for the next month. and we like to eat. Its not all what the PETA video shows (they pick and chose aiming for the large "feed yards" where the price per pound is already set so all the feed yard people have to do is fatten them up)

I knew no one would like my opinion, but that never stopped me before. We are all from different cultures and we all see and believe differently. This is probably the darkest and most vile belief I have, so please don't think I'm some evil monster of a person. I have the utmost respect for people, it's just not shared with animals bread for food.

And by the way DSTM, it's not an outlook on life. As just explained, what I believe about this subject does not carry over to people. So if everyone believed the way I do, we would have a friendly society where everyone got along, but the majority of animals are basically treated as slaves. I also like to be un-politicaly correct, so what I say tends to sound worse than what it actually is. I'm actually a nice person with strong views that tend to be deviant from the majority of people's.

(Side question: why did you get rid of your cool avatar of Gandalf, DSTM?)

Aren't we all?

Well,

the majority of us are, anyway.

Just an observation.

I have found that whenever you discuss a controversial topic among forum members where they can depend on their anonymity someone will inevitably start throwing fertilizer at the wall just to see if it will stick.

A question, if you pick an apple fresh from the tree and take a bite from it, is that apple still alive?

Solaris like others have said thats pretty sad.

For one plants dont have "feelings" or a brain.

My family has a farm. We dont like to see our animals in nasty pens or such as they dont like it no more than you would because they have feelings and some sense you know just not like us.

To say they dont deserve to be treated kindly because they only live so many years is oh man....very sad.

Even a big stupid fat pig can be a pet. They deserve to be treated kindly even if you are raising them to be eaten.

And re the apple from the tree ...

Yup, it's 'alive' because when it's dead it's all wrinkled and stinky - grin!

Thankfully fruit and veggies don't have a brain or nerve centers but still, I always say a silent 'thank you' to it just before I bite - gentle smile. (Not 'norma', I know, but just a hold-over from my childhood).

I don't understand what you mean by that statement.

In regards to plants not having a brain etc., because of this, you believe them to be far inferier beings than you, therefore its ok to kill them and eat them at your leisure. I consider an animal whose sole purpose is to be eaten, far inferier to humans, and such trivialties as comfort are not necessery, and nor does it make the food better. They need only be fattened and killed. Sure some of the practices are archaic, such as slamming a pig to the ground to kill it. It would be easier and less brutal to say slice it's throat. May not sound kind but it's quick. And further, in that video, Alec Baldwin complains that the pigs aren't unconscious when they do have their throats slit? What would be the point in that? They will die soon anyway, and it's things like that I find pointless. I don't blame the industry for wanting to do the most efficient and cost effective way of harvesting animals. Such things like anaesthetic, bigger living quarters, better food, etc. just isn't profitable, and ultimately pointless to the inevitably doomed, non-sentient animal. Just as a reminder, I do love and care about pets, especially dogs , they weren't bread to be eaten, so they get treated better.

Here's the link to the video to watch if you havn't seen it yet:

http://www.petatv.com/tvpopup/video.asp?vi...t&Player=qt

They still have feelings plants do not.

For cow killing they have a hammer with I think a 22 bullet where they hit the cow in the head and it knocks then basically out and they cut the throat. Very sad it is but we have to eat.....

I googled "Plants Pain" and was surprised at what I read.
There are a number of interesting sites on this point.

http://www.uncoveror.com/plants.htm

If you don't mind eating meat from cattle that have been kept in unsanitary and filthy surroundings that is your choice but for every bit of filth that these animals would be made to endure there is also a great risk of the animal becoming infected with multiple diseases. If the diseased animals are not detected at the slaughter house then you run the risk of having the infection spread to humans who consume the meat from these infected animals. The consiquences are not something so easily overlooked. As the large majority of livestock farmers will tell you raising the cattle in as sanitary conditions as possible (all things being considered) is not only a benefit to their profits and livelihood but the public health as well. To pass off cruelty to animals that are going to be consumed as food simply because someone says they are nothing more than dumb animals is cruelty in a form that demeans the speaker who believes this. Animals are not as intelligent as humans and never will be. Some are more intelligent than others but the fact remains that they are living, breathing animals with nervous systems and pain perception that is as fine tuned as ours. They do in fact know and feel pain and though they are not on our intellectual level they still have enough intellect to know when they hurt,when they are in pain, when they are uncomfortable and when they are sick. Yes man was granted dominion over the fish,fowl and beast of the earth but he was not given the right to treat them anymore cruely than is absolutely necessary to provide us with sustenance. Dominion means to rule over or to have control over, not to treat cruely or to torture. I have all too often found that those who can not treat the least of God's creatures in a humane and decent way usually are not all that different in their interaction with their fellow humans. We have entire races of people that for centuries were treated no better and believed to be no better than any beast of the field. Would then the same type of cruelty then be considered as just for them? I'm not a vegetarian, I like a good steak as well as the next person but I do not believe in being unneccessarily cruel to the animals that provide us with food at the expense of their lives. As to which animals are deemed edible, that seems to be mostly a regional and cultural thing. All have differing opinions on what animals constitute edible meat and there are times when the surrounding and unforseen circumstances of an area can and has been known to change the view of the inhabitants as to what is consumable and what is not. There are and always will be unfortunate things that man has no control over, but in times when we do have a say and control over the issue of what animal is edible and what one is not the cultural norms for that area usually prevail but there is no excuse for blatant cruelty.

Can you prove that animals have feelings? Can they think and make logical choices? For example, if I set out bird food, attract birds, feed them well for about 5 years, then I move and take away the source of food which they have come to know...what happens? They die. Why? Because they don't have logical reasoning like humans. I can say...well, there is nothing in my refrigerator, so I will go to the grocery store.

Another example...Titi monkey's live in trees. They hold their young to keep them from falling out of the tree. The male monkey holds the young for approximately 90% of the daytime hours....ALL of them do it. Do you think that every one of those male titi monkeys DECIDED to hold their young to keep them from falling? Or is it programmed/instinctual?

Have you ever had a cow plead for its life before being butchered? Do the other cows go through periods of depression and grieving when one of the cow is butchered? or.....do they continue eating, sleeping, pooping, and growing?

Perhaps cows and other animals consumed for the meat don't mourn or get depressed (do we have anyway of knowing for sure) and no they do not have the mental capacity to make rational and logical decisions but bash one of these animals with a ball bat in the leg, head or any part of the body you so choose and I guarantee you it will cry out in pain unless it's vocal cords have been ripped out. Yes, they feel pain and to not recognize this one fact about animals is a sad statement of mans ability to make an excuse to be cruel.

Just to throw it out there...

I don't want to be cruel to animals, and I believe cruelty to animals is inexcusable...however, if it comes down to the person offending the animals. They have a problem, and need that problem corrected. That person has an eternal future that needs to be considered. The animal has no element of salvation. (Of course this all depends on your beliefs, these are mine.)

Just because an animal cries out in pain does not mean they associate emotion to the pain. We associate emotion with pain. For example...I may have a headache for an hour and begin to get worn down emotionally because I need to get some work done, but can't focus enough to read...etc.

Animals react to pain with instinct...deer run for water when they are shot or hurt. (Same with horses I believe.) etc.

Humans react completely differently.

Edit: I need to add...in case its brought up...fear with animals is also an instinct, not an emotion.

Yeah,

I believe we

pee in our pants,

but I'm not sure.

If it's feels warm, 'John Who' my guess is you have peed your Pants.
Speaking for myself, I was toilet trained at an early age.

You know, I've heard they make some wonderful adult diapers.

It has nothing to do with offending the animals, I'm not that stupid and I'm very well adjusted , thankyou. This is also not about whether or not animals feel emotions. They do however know and feel pain. There are actually animals that do experience emotions to a certain extent, not that it is neccessarily pertanent to the subject. I've seen a dog sit and literally grieve for days on end because of another dog ( their companion for many years has died.) Why do you suppose that is? At the very least lonliness and feeling a sense of loss. When you wean a foal from it's mother and they are seperated to different areas they cry out to each other. The foal to the mother that has been with him from birth and watched over him as he grew strong, not just because either of them miss only the nursing phase because by that time the foal is usually on solid food. It is an inborn sense of lose when they are seperated, so instinct or not the seperation is felt just the same. Emotions are not tantamount to the ability to feel pain. Pain is pain is pain regarless of who is feeling it and regardless of any emotional feelings.
By the way DSTM thank you for the link concerning the studies being done with plants and to rather or not they have a sensory perception of acutual of pain. I know that scientist have studied just this thing for many years now and have come to the conclusion that plants may very well feel pain of sorts. I find the subject matter interesting especially since there is still so much about the world around us that we don't know.

I'm sorry, I can't let you off the hook this easy.

What did I say to suggest you are unintelligent?

Maybe you don't see it as pertinent to the subject, but now that you have made the claim, I would like to ask you to provide som supporting evidence.
This was your interpretation of what you saw. Did you ask the dog how it felt and was it capable of explaining how it felt to you?

Have you taken a foal from its mother in order to make this claim? Can you prove its not just mere instinct? Is this only with horses, or with the majority of animals? Does it vary within their own species, or is it widespread....kind of like...instinct?

If pain is pain is pain...and it means nothing emotionally...then why the heck would you care if someone shot you through the foot? If its just pain, then it means absolutely nothing.......No, actually...see, it hurts. The brain says...ouch...and you associate emotion that deals with the pain.
Would you say that holding a magnifying glass over an ant and burning it to death is cruelty to animals? Or do you see an ant as the same as your family dog? Do ants feel pain? How about a fish that gets a hook through its lip, over and over again, because it cannot discern the different between real and fake?

Excellent post 'Iodine' because you know what your talking about.I was raised on a farm and completely agree with your Post. Unless you have lived beside animals for years,and done reseach on the behavior of Animals,one hasn't a clue of what Animals feel or dont feel.

You are right DSTM, experience and keen observation can clear up many question when you are involved and interact with animals everyday. And yes I did have a colt tha I had to seperate from his mother for weaning purposes and it was much more than instinct that drove them. My mothers dog mourned for over a week when our other dog died. She would sit at the back door that she always went out to interact with him and give out the most gut wrenching cry, it was totally different than anyother sound she had ever made. She stayed there by the door the whole time, barely eating waiting for him to come back. Because we can feel and express emotions doesn't mean that an animal's pain is any less simply because they don't react emotionally. No they can't reason like we do or think logically but they still hurt just the same.

Look, I don't want to be rude, but I could say this.....

"My dog barked every time this lady walked by the house. My dog is sexist." Its my interpretation of what I see. Just as the way you saw the situation. I will respectfully wait supporting evidence that animals have emotions equivalent to humans.

For the above quote...what other factor was it beside instinct? And how do you know?

This is an absolute contradiction within itself in my opinion.

About animals and 'emotions' ... I very much agree with both DSTM and Iodine that many animals do have emotions, although how on earth one can prove this is scientific studies is yet to be 'proved'. But then again, if we required speaking or writing skills to prove we had emotions, most of us would 'pass'. But since animals don't have these skills, we often believe we are justified in thinking they don't. But carry that one step farther and 'ask' a new born baby to prove they have emotions. Or ask an adult that has lost the ability to write or speak due to an accident, for instance - would we then assume they too lack emotions. All very bewildering in some ways, but anyone who has spent a lot of time around animals will understand that not only do they have varied 'personalities' they have emotions, as well. Truly. Gentle smile.

About plants and 'pain'... The studies done in regard to plants ‘feeling pain’ are certainly interesting and go a long way to explaining my huge guilt every time I plucked a carrot from the garden as a child – eep.

But I think further studies have shown that since plants lack nerve endings, brains, hormones and other structures that would allow them to experience ‘pain’, what they are reacting to is something called nastic movement. (Science aside, my mother, while stopping short of believing plants could ‘feel’ in the same sense we do, would have joined many other people who stand firm on the ‘talking to a plant causes it to be robust and flower more versus the one ignored except for basic requirements that doesn’t flourish at all).

Re "holding a magnifying glass over an ant and burning it to death" ... first, huge ugh! Because although I don't believe they feel pain, can't for the life of me figure out why someone would do this - huge eep! But my own feelings aside ...

About Invertebrates’ (no spine, such as lobsters and fish, ants, beetles, etc) …

(Quote) “The chain ganglia network is so simple it doesn’t require a brain … removing the head region of a lobster causes the body of the lobster to react in the same way, because of the local reflexes involving the chain ganglia” … which is nothing more than neurons that have been stimulated”. (Unquote)

About 'animals feeling pain' ... When it comes to animals feeling pain, it’s true that for many long centuries in man’s history we believed that they don’t. In fact, it was often felt we humans were simply ‘transferring’ our own emotions to an animal’s behaviour when it was hurt.

Science has now showed that animals with a vertebrate (spine) have the same nerves that we humans do – and these nerves (nocioceptors) feel pain go up to the spinal cord and on up to the brain where we experience the sensation of pain. (In addition to doing this, nerves also cause chemicals to be released to both the nerves themselves and to the injury site itself).

In fact, I believe science has now shown that both the general anatomy and physiology of all vertebrate is essentially the same with regards to how vertebrates feel and since animals have the same nerves we do, they do feel pain.

That said, I am still a meat eater but I feel strongly that a clean living environment, Vet care when required, proper food along with care shown to animals slated to land on my dinner plate is a good thing - and I only wish that a sudden bullet through the brain was the method used for killing rather than so many other ways that are being used.

Although there are many science sources, the below (and above quote) is taken from an article called ‘Pain Management’ (Source and full story: http://abcnews.go.com/Health/PainManagemen...2163&page=1

(Quote) "There are two types of animals, invertebrates and vertebrates," said Craig W. Stevens, professor of pharmacology at the Center for Health Sciences at Oklahoma State University in Tulsa”.

Vertebrates with spines have much more advanced nervous systems and can feel real pain and suffering, Stevens explained.
"In humans, there are ... neurons talking through all parts of the brain. That's a big difference," Stevens said” (Unquote)..

Yeah, but do you wait until you've been shot or in a life threatening situation

and then put them on?

That's not a fair example, because we know that baby's have emotions, as evidenced not only by science but by what they become as they grow.
I wouldn't, would you? I acknowledge that humans have complexe emotions. Animals are the issue....of course, if your presupposition is materialistic in nature, and you believe that humans are animals, then I can see where you are coming from. I don't believe humans are animals.
I keep seeing similar quotes as this. Just in case they are directed at me...I have been around and kept many animals as pets. My family is an animal-loving family. I have a dog right now myself. My sister has 2 horses, a dog, a cat. My mother has a dog and a bird. The list goes on. I understand where the "personality" comes in. However, when I look at an animal, I see something SO incredibly different than when I look at my 6 week-old son.
This seems to be the crux of the environmentalist "movement". Humans are at fault...feel guilty. I don't feel guilty for plucking anything...in fact I praise God for the provision of food. It is the way He designed it. I enjoy eating carrots. Why feel guilty over something intended to bring joy and nourishment? If they weren't meant to be plucked and eaten...what's the point of the indesigned nutrients?
If you want to do an interesting study about this sort of thing...look into how the birds' singing and chirping awaken vegitation to accept the nutrients from rain. Its absolutely fascinating, and yet points even further to the magnificence of The Designer.
I of course agree they feel pain...the question is associating emotion with pain. What in fact is pain without your brain interpreting what to do? With humans...I may go to a bar and drink to drown out emotional pain. Have you ever heard of animals doing in like manner? Does the Koala bear eat eucalyptus leaves to get high to drown out their boredom? Or is it a programmed, designed reason?

As usual MaraM, I enjoyed your post.

In my opinion, there is no difference between cows and cats, pigs and dogs. They are all animals and fair game for food.

Animal cruelty, however, is a completely different issue. Killing animals for enjoyment is absolutely disgusting, IMHO. If shooting holes in the sides of animals and tearing off their body parts as trophies constitutes entertainment, serial killers are no surprise to the society. I mean absolutely no offense to those who enjoy hunting and fishing.

Well most hunt for both sport and food when say deer hunting or fishing.

We may save the "Big ones" head or the trophy bass may never get eaten but mounted but taking pleasure in killing a animal to just kill it is sick.

Agree 'CGM3' I love fishing,when I get the chance,and if I get more than I need for eating,I immediately put them back in the water. Most times I don't catch a thing.LOL.
To kill a Deer or any Animal for that matter,and not for food,just to let it rot on the ground is sad.IMO.
To kill a large Animal,just to cut it's head off and mount it in your Home,is "not my cup of tea",as they say.

I love fishing also.

Here in Georgia...if they don't have deer hunting season...we would be completely overrun by deer, causing stench, disease, etc. So in this case, its actually a very GOOD thing to hunt.

Same with Florida and their gators.

There are no Deer heads (or any other type of animal) that grace the walls of my house. I do have a few racks of antlers (6-10 pointers) and a hat rack made of deer legs and a deer skin rug. What I'm not gonna eat I feed the dogs (for the most part).

BTW: I though fishing was just an excuse to drink on the water? Fishing here is over rated the best fish are too close to the Dam to catch and I prefer catfish over bass.

ummm.....so what are we then? We may like to think of ourselves as "higher" speices than the rest of the life on Earth but the fact of the matter is we are animals... Mammals to be precise. Just like the dog, or the cow.

As to the animals and emotions thing that keep coming up. They do experience emotions. Just because they cant vocalise those emotions to prove it to us doesnt mean they dont experience them. Heres the proof. You want to define between what is instinct and what is emotion right? I have two pet dogs, a rough collie and a scnauzer. The collie is scared of most things, such as hoovers, etc but thunder storms in particular terrify her. Now you may say that alot of dogs a troubled by thunderstorms and this reaction could be attributed to instinct. Normally I would agree, but while this dog is fighting with my mum to hide behind the sofa the schnauzer is simply laying there having its belly scratch by me. Surely if this was an instinctal (is that a real word?) reaction then they would both be just as scared right?



Im going to turn the tables and say how do you KNOW that they arent associating emotion to their pain?

No we are not.....

We are just another Creature on this Earth.

EDIT.And doing a pretty thorough job of destroying our planet.IMHO.

I'm not asking this to be argumentative, truly I'm not.

But I always thought we were 'animals' - as in ...

(Animal: An organized living being endowed with sensation and the power of voluntary motion, and also characterized by taking its food into an internal cavity or stomach for digestion; by giving carbonic acid to the air and taking oxygen in the process of respiration; and by increasing in motive power or active aggressive force with progress to maturity).

Perhaps the statement that we are "not animals" was not mean physically (as in meat that can eat but also be eaten), but spiritually?

Exactly what I meant Mara M. While we belive and like to think of ourselves as "above" other creatures, from a scientific view we are animals. Though the term animal has become a dergogative term when applied to a human being. But you can choose to look at it however you want, we are what we are and no matter how much spin you put on it you cant deny the truth.

Once again, the issue all comes down to what you believe. I personally believe there is a God that created man, and created animals. He created man in His own image and gave them free will. Animals were not created in His image. Thus the belief there is a difference. That's my personal belief...therefore based on what I believe, I am not an animal. Does this suddenly mean its okay to disrespect an animal....etc.? Of course not.

Its really quite simple to look at the genetic code of man, and any animal and see that they clearly don't belong in the same class. Or whatever they call it these days.

On a side note...for anyone that remembers me explaining that my dog broke her hip...we carried her up and down 3 flights of stairs for 5 weeks, kept her in a nice warm confined space...and I am happy and proud to say that my little buddy is just the way she was before the incident. She healed up perfectly.

athelos, thanks for the support - gentle hug - for while I surely don't expect everyone to agree with my thoughts, it's lovely to know that there can be lots of 'truths' in this magical world of ours. And for myself, I'm quite all right with being considered an 'animal' under the earlier definition - and, in fact, do wonder also why some will use the term animal in a derogatory way especially since few four legged animals can come close to the vilenss that mankind can conceive, sadly.


jwinathome ...


I don't mind if you don't consider yourself or others an 'animal', truly I don't - it's okay that we have varying opinions

Aha, problem solved! ...

If we all use words such as, "in my opinion" or "I think" rather than 'stating facts', all could be well between everyone's varying opinions in our lovely world - huge smile!

I am glad to hear that your dog has recovered. Have you spoken with your vet about possible glucosamine supplementation? In order to deter any sort of arthritis.

True, genetic codes vary by species. But, what leads you to the conclusion that genetics between man and animal are so dissimilar? Just curious...

Happy for your dog, though! And the fact that you don't have to carry it up and down stairs any longer!