A 19 year old awaits trial ...

(Quote: "Facing trial for his part in the fatal injuries suffered by family dog Daisy Duke last October, Daniel Charles Haskett, 19, changed his plea Wednesday to guilty. He also pleaded guilty to another charge of obstruction of justice for lying to police when he initially told them that Daisy, his mother's Lab-border-collie cross, had run away.

In fact, Daisy had been run over twice, bound with duct tape, had a bag taped over her head in a suffocation attempt, hit with a shovel and finally left to die in an intersection after being dragged behind a car" (Unquote)

Apparently the young man has said he's "sorry" and his lawyer must feel sorry for him as the following is a quote from his lawyer:

"It's certainly had a very negative impact on him. Life has been much harder on him. Some of the people have been very mean about it all."


(Source and full story: http://www.mytelus.com/ncp_news/article.en...icleID=2658447)

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Well duh, I'm afraid I'd be 'mean about it' too - what does he expect, people to embrace him and ask to be his friend?!! Geesh. The scary thing is - and I honestly believe this - that someone who can do what he did may someday do that to another innocent creature and/or innocent person.

Wonder if his mom feels the same about him now as she did the day before he murdered her furry friend. Huge sigh.

Just wondering what the other members feel his punishment should be, if any?

That's easy... run over twice,...bound with duct tape...suffocated..hit with a shovel....dragged behind a car.

Yep. that should about do it.

Thats heart wrenching! That makes my head ache. Animals are innocent! They depend upon humans to love them. A person that dog trusted turned on HER! And people talk about dogs turning on people. Hmmpf

I think Groovicus has the right of it. I would like a chance to be "mean" to that kid.

Its very sick and sad, but lets not forget it only an animal. People get murdered, beaten and tortured everyday and most stories dont even make the news.

Well personally. Id get good and primed and then go after the *bleep* with my baseball bat (note: work the body... more pain) Seriously this is one sick, twisted individual and he deserves a good beating. if the people outside of prison dont get him the ones inside will (prisoners tend to like dogs. at least thats what I've noticed)

With you on that one groovicus!!!!



Bilko, let me put this to you.......in the animal world, animals only kill for food, sickness or weakness or because they are threatened.
Yet, the non "animals" of the world - us humans, intellegent, moral, ethical, emotion, problem solvers etc we kill for fun, fame, jealousy, power, pleasure. Yes we kill for food, sickness (outrageous!), fear and threats (Plausable).
We have, supposedly the most power and intellegence and yet we are the most depicable species on this planet.

We tamed the animal species for our companionship not the other way around. We are not superior to nature itself and we should respect not just ourselves but everything that we share with this world.

thanks

What an absolute scumbag.

I asked MaraM if I could include a Link to a Shocking Animal Cruelty incident which had our Nation appalled,and MaraM welcomed the inclusion,so here it is.Thanks MaraM.
This incdent hapened 10 KLMS from where I live.The facts which emerged later is they stomped on this poor defenceless kitten,kicked it,Rode over the poor thing with their Bicycles and then threw it on the Train tracks.A Police Woman jumped onto the tracks and saved it.Took it to the Vet,and after weeks in hospital, has it as her own Pet now.The culprits were caught.
Shocking to hear about the Poor Dog.There are some sick People in this world.I hope the Inmates where he is now will meter out just Revenge.A lot of imates are cruel to their fellow Man,but kind to Animals.I have read many cases where animals are concerned,a lot of Inmates show kindness towards them.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/photos...6110937172.html

The act itself is despicable - but also what kind of person can his lawyer be to actually seem baffled why people "are mean" to his client? Good grief!

And I do understand the frustration when the murder of a person hardly 'warrants' news headlines anymore, but feeling repulsion towards this creep doesn't negate the loathing we feel towards those that murder people - rather somehow, in my own mind at least, I think a person who can do something like this is more than able to take a human life. Sort of an 'interchangeable' brute.
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Thanks, DSTM! I felt ill reading what these _____'s did! And I'm just so, so grateful they are not my children as I honestly do not know what I would do to them. (Always think of the old Bill Crosby sitcom ... where he says, "I brought you into this world and I can take you out!" )

I'm totally against animal cruelty. My point was people seem to have forgotten that this goes on against humans every day and nobody bats an eyelid.

Yes I hope the full force of the law is thrown at him, but I only hope for the sake of human victims that the punishment he recieves is less than he would have got for a similar assault on a person, or we run the risks then of saying humans are worth less than animals. (some humans are worth less than animals though)

In a lot of cases they are worth less in my opinion.This is not a comparison test of who is worth more.This is about what Human Beings do to another species,not their own.And the other Species is Defenceless, whats more.

I'm with groovicus on this... Let's keep life simple.. Do to him/them what he /they have inflicted on others..( being it any living subject) This is what I call barebone justice.. Simple but effective.. THE baseball bat is appealing though..

Like why did he do it is the question?


Yeah he needs the same treatment the dog got.

**The below is completely my meaningless opinion.**

Eye for an eye eh?

I recommend grace in the situation. This PERSON has a family that is also affected. The dog is dead, its "relatives" don't care and don't know whats going on.

I am also against animal cruelty in any form, I believe we are called to be "good stewards" over the animals of the earth. However, this human being still has a life left, and he obviously needs help. I say he should be prosecuted with accordance to the law and serve his punishment, but be given help. He doesn't deserve the same treatment as the animal. Don't get me wrong please...he deserves to be punished.

I swear, I think if extreme animal lovers saw Osama Bin Laden petting a dog, they would forgive him. (Sorry, this is a frustrating subject for me. This country has completely lost the value of human life.)

Without flaming or whatever but I strongly disagree JWAH. This has nothing to do with an eye for an eye but is merely meant as teaching this "person" some social skills... This time it was a dog and we give him a pat on the head.. What about next time, or even worse what if he excercise same rights and inflict this on a person. Again an eye for an eye??

Can you imagine what happens if something like this was done to one of your lovedones being it a k-nine or a human??

My thoughts, for what they're worth.
First, don't blame the lawyer, he/she didn't commit the offence, and in a democracy everyone is entitled to defend their position in Court, and the lawyer is just making the best of very poor material.
Secondly, I love animals, and I have had two dogs from a rehoming center. How many of those up in arms are happy to eat steak, pork, etc? If we're going to love animals let's love them all.
Thirdly, if you are prepared to dish out to this man what he dished out to this animal, what does that say about you? Could you really do that, in cold blood? If you could then I find that rather disturbing.
Finally, yes he deserves punishment according to the due process of the law, and help also, he's a fellow human being and very obviously needs it.
I don't know if I could find any compassion in my heart if it was my dog that had been treated that way, but I hope I could try. A society is judged by how it treats the worst of it's citizens, after all.

Wow, what a polarizing subject!!

I too love animals. Thus, I do believe the perp should be punished, as the animal was not his property. And I think that punishment should include pain and public embarrassment.

ghostwriter


This is untrue. There are numerous accounts from friends in Montana of wolves roaming in packs and killing sheep at will. And I mean killing by means of evisceration and severing hamstrings. They don't eat the sheep, they leave them to die. Evil and cruelty are a biproduct of power, IMO.


I do believe in second chances. After that I draw the line though. I am in agreement with jwinathome, this individual needs some sort of help, and he should receive that help.
However, if this individual disregards the help he is given, and performs the same sort of merciless brutality (after public pain and private help), then further action must be taken. For, this is simply a manifestation of evil; evil cannot be allowed to thrive.

In a healthy society there must be fear. Not of some elusive, faceless 'government', rather a fear of those we live with everyday. A healthy fear of our community, and how we reflect on it.

It certainly seems to me that people who mistreat pets to the point of torture and killing them, whether their own or another's, show a sad disregard both for life and for the grief they cause the pet owners. We normally consider such people as suffering from psychological disorders. These botched and bungled people need enforced psychological help, since their sickness could easily lead them to torture and kill children or even family members.
Regards,
John

Agree with you 'John' that this Low Life needs enforced Psychiatric help immediately.If this doesn't curb his behavior,then he should be removed from society till such times he reforms. You also made a good point which I agree with and that is left untreated as in a lot of cases I have researched,they go on to Torture and in a lot of cases Kill People, including members of their own Family. I feel like a lot of members here,and would like to take to this animal with whatever I could find,but in reality we can't become Vigilanties every time a crime is commited.We must let the full force of the law deal with them.The only exception in my mind is when the Law fails in it's duty.Then I feel we have a right to take the Law into our own hands.If I was to see somebody giving this so called person a bashing over his cruel treatment of this poor Animal,I definately would not come to his aid.I didn't see a thing.My Thoughts.

I guess I have difficulty seeing people like this as 'people' or "human beings". Rather, I'm apt to think of them as "simply a manifestations of evil" (sorry about using your words out of context here, Blueandgold).

And also often wonder at the ability of the remainder of we humans to believe that therapy and other help will truly 'help' people who can do things like this - to either animals or fellow human beings. I know I could be wrong here, but so, so, so often people like this 'get help' and then are released only to do it again - and then, and only then do we think hmmm. (When it's too late for the second victim).

While I may not whack them upside their heads myself, I'd also join the ranks that wouldn't intervene if someone else did it. (I know, I know - that makes me as guilty as the whacker - but then again, I'm far from perfect - gentle grin).

This is just another sad story in a string of them that will continue until the end of time. I don't hate the man that did this. I just pray for him.


Seafox14

Hmm, maybe you dont watch the same sort of nature programes or read the same nature books as me, but here are just a few examples.

http://www.americanscientist.org/template/...l/assetid/54077

Similar behaviour has been observed in gorillas.



Also I beleive it has been observedin some animals revenge attacks. Now I could be wrong but I think it was Elephants in Asia.

With some many cries of disgust for killing the animal, why are some of you then condoning a similar punishment to the offender. To me this only shows that you are no better than he is, so would this then make you take the next step to killing someone.

Loss of freedom, ie sending him to gaol should be sufficient.

No I'm not a bleeding heart libral, I just class myself as a better person than him for not exacting a similar punishment to that which he dished out.

Kip Kinkel, 15, of Oregon; Mitchell Johnson, 13, and Andrew Golden, 11, of Jonesboro Arkansas; and Luke Woodham, 16, of Pearl, Mississipi. Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold. Patrick Sherrill. Albert DeSalvo, the "Boston Strangler". Jeffrey Dahmer.
What do these people have in common? All of them are killers, some serial killers, others were involved in school shootings.
The common thread-all of them started out by abusing animals.
They may be "just animals" to some people, but they don't deserve to be abused, tortured, and killed by violence.

Correct!

In my opinion I think that they can turn around, but people reach a certain line where they are never fully healed from their problems.

I do not and will not judge him for what he has done because that is not what I am supposed to do. I feel that a maximum sentence allowable by law should be enforced but no torture on the person. If the owner of the animal did the same thing to the person then they are a hypocrite, but they also did something worse, human life in my opinion is worth more than animals lifes. So while it was wrong, it would be worse to enforce the same on the person.

-Steve

I doubt we have heard the last of this person. He will show up on CNN or Headline News before it is over with. Probably for killing a human this time.

I am in full agreement. It's only a matter of time.

In my life I've only known 2 things to educate. Those are Pain and Experience (and experience is often painful). This guy experienced how it feels to kill and now he needs to have some pain brought into his life. You dont have to kill him just a few bruised ribs and a smashed knee will suffice. Prison is like a play pen in America now it serves almost no purpose in the correction of offenders.

My money is on that this guy was never properly punished as a child. He was never smacked for pulling the dogs tail, he was never forced out into the woods to find his own "switch" after breaking a window. No this guy probably got "Time Out", more like a waste of the parents time.

I love my Dogs (and the cats too I guess) and if anyone were to try to intentionally hurt them.... Well lets not go there.

I do agree. Sadly, he will likely say he's so so so sorry - and yet, is statistically apt to do the same thing or worse once again, very soon.

Years ago, someone drove spikes through 3 of our kitty's paws while we were at work. Poor thing dragged itself back home and through the cat-door - to be found by our daughter who, in turn, carried this kitty around the house dripping blood for the 1/2 hour it took us to race home. Poor precious cat died a horrible death and our child had nightmares for nearly a year. And I'm right with you, BlackSpyder - deliberately hurt my pets or someone I love and grrrr.

That is sad. I know it is "just" a pet. However, to most families pets are consider an actually family member. I would feel like it was murder to my own sibling if it was my dog.

While I agree that we 'should' be above committing the same acts on those who trespass against us, I admit that I am not. Religious beliefs aside, I am ok with being a human, and what that naturally brings with it.

I stand by my earlier post, I believe in second chances. However, that does not eliminate the need for consequences.

I am very sorry to hear about your cat MaraM. My wife and I have a puppy now (she is about 5 months old), and she may be my property, but she is also a member of our family. Granted, her capacity is limited to licking, playing, and causing problems; but we love her.

And I can say without waver... If some piece of $&!# did something like any of this to my puppy, I will get them. And make no mistake, I did not choose for the person to perform these actions. But I will choose the consequence. There is obviously a systemic failure somewhere, when the system breaks down, it falls to the individual.

Everyone talks about how aweful it is for us to take 'justice' into our own hands. I respectfully disagree.



Why are they a hypocrite? The object at issue is not the treatment of a known low-life, but the mistreatment of a family pet/possession, or a family member (human) in some cases. The owner of the animal is not against just punishment, they are against unjust torture. Thus, through this argument you are joining issues.

Choice/consequence, cause/effect; natural forces.
My pet's life is worth more than the scum who tortures it.

Then comes the whole, "We can't have vigilante justice!" argument. I agree, but if someone brings their stuff to my doorstep, then they have tried to make the choice for me, haven't they? And as I said before, at some point I accept my Humanity.

My pet's life is worth more than the scum who tortures it. - BG

I don't know if you would write something like this because you are emotional about this subject, or if you really mean it....but if you really believe this...that's really too bad.

(really)

I feel that this individual should have some serious counseling. It has been proven time and time again that torturing and killing animals is a "gateway" to doing it to humans. He is still human and may have a chance of straightening himself out if he gets the right treatment.

I have always had pets and love animals, in fact we had a pair of large dogs come up on our front porch and take our cat. I immediately called the police and the dogs were put down after another similar incident.

Why is this so bad? We are all the same humanity, thus I would expect the same from one I transgressed against. Was it not Jesus who said, "If your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out." Why is it ok to exercise control over ourselves in some instances, yet not in others?

What makes that person better? The fact that they are a human (kind-of)? What makes them worth more to me?

Whether a family pet or a family member, for me at least, they are a 'notch' far above someone who tortures and murders other people or animals. People who do this don't have the 'humanity' to qualify for human being status as sadly, evil often walks on two legs. (And I don't mean 'evil' in a religious sense).

I'm all for therapy but what I'm not for is the ego we humans seem to have that we can 'fix' anything or anybody. So, so often people who have no remorse and are not stupid enough to tell the Courts this, are turned loose - to repeat their offense. Guess what I'm saying is anyone who can do this - to something with two legs or four - is 'beyond sick' somehow - to me, it shows a creature lacking human qualities and while I don't advocade them 'being put down' like a rabit animal would, I do understand the huge frustration with our society seeming to think everyone is 'salvagable'.

Have said it before but truly mean it - before a Judge or a Parole team sets someone free, they should be willing to have that person as their neighbour, not ours. Would they still be set free, I wonder?

I completely disagree with those saying that human's lives are worth more than an animal's. There are over 6 billion people in the world. You can call me sick, heartless, and everything else you can think of, but if my house was burning down and there was a choice of a theif or my cat to save, I'd choose my cat. Then I'd probably go into my room and salvage my back-up CDs which contain all the valuable data from my computer, including mp3s... then I'd probably grab all the money I can find, and credit cards... You get the picture.

Humans are selfish creatures by nature. Every single human, if morals and upbringing were removed, would simply strive to enhance it's own existance. So are animals... except they don't have the capacity NOR THE NEED for such things.

On the subject of discoveries of animals exacting revenge or killing for sport... there is no way of explaining these. Not all animals of every species act exactly the same. Perhaps they've evolved to the stage where morals have slipped in somewhere, maybe they have become "aware". Who knows. But since they aren't killing humans, then I see no cause for concern.

Where those who care may be concerned, anyone who can injure an animal to such an extent on purpose and feel no remorse other than when other humans start being "mean" to him or her, is so, so easily capable of inflicting such catastrophes on a human. The way the law works, though, is that people are punished for crimes, not prevented from committing them in the first place, by which time it is too late. The system is flawed in itself anyway.

I say this with all due respect however, I'm just speaking as a human who isn't particularly comfortable in her own skin, as it were.

Look up Saul in the Bible....later Paul. Read about David, a passionate lover of the Lord, yet gave into temptation. The best example though is Paul. There is redemption, even for the most brutal of murderers. It is the Lord's will that NONE SHOULD PERISH. Why do so many people miss this stuff in the Word? The entire New Testament is about grace and redemption. You among us who is without sin, cast the first stone. Why didn't any of them cast a stone when that was said?

Like I said in another post...he should be prosecuted according to law. He is subject to the law...animals are not. Humans have logical reasoning, animals do not. Humans have logical decision-making skills. Animals do not. Man has a spirit and a soul. Animals do not.

"If your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out." If you take these verses out of context, then you must not have either eye, or a right-hand or left-hand....and if you still do, then you are lying to yourself.

"What makes that person better?" I don't think "better" is even an issue here. They are human. They tortured a pet...next would be some small kid...who knows...thats why he needs to be in prison and he needs help. The man should be worth more to you than an animal because there is salvation available to the man...not the animal.

"Humans are selfish creatures by nature. Every single human, if morals and upbringing were removed, would simply strive to enhance it's own existance. So are animals... except they don't have the capacity NOR THE NEED for such things." - Sookan

This phrase shows your complete lack of understanding. No offense...but if you took away humans from the equation, it would be animals killing and eating each other to gain their own survival. Do you understand that? Animals know nothing besides instinctual survival. Every thing else is mimicry. Just look at animals in the wild...do you ever see those crocodiles give safe passage to the water buffalo just to be nice to them? The animal kingdom is nothing but grotesque killing. Its how they survive. Humans are worth more than animals. (In my opinion.)

Not in my opinion.They are equal. With respect,I think your argument is full of holes.
Aren't we taught to love all Ceatures Great and Small? I wouldn't pass judgement as them being of lessor importance.
They don't carry the Disgusting Traits that Humans do,for a start.So how much better are we really than them?

Taught by whom?

I am taught to be a "good steward" over God's creation, yes. By all means, fill the holes I left open. This is a good discussion. Man has been taught for centuries now that we are nothing but animals...does it surprise anyone that we act savagely just like the animal kingdom? Have you watched any nature shows? What would suggest to you that animals are capable of setting up peace-loving societies?

I would be tweaked if I caught this mutt tormenting someones pet. If I caught him torturing one of my cats or dog I would have no problem staking him over a bed of fire ants. Safety penning his eyes open and taking a razor and cutting several wounds from his arm pit to his ankle. May be even shoving a firecracker up his tail pipe.

I certainly hope you are joking.

here,here

And what would suggest to you that this person desires a 'peace-loving society'?

True, it is the Lord's will that none shall perish. However, scriptually speaking, this is only for those who believe in His Word, and request His salvation. That request is between the person in question and God. However, even you cannot say that this person's actions are conducive to a righteous path?!

And you profess a belief in being a 'Good Steward'. I do commend that. Yet, to be a good steward requires the making of decisions, what is good and what is detrimental? Furthermore, if something is deemed detrimental, what point is being a good steward if you are unwilling to perform the actions of a steward?

Is it savage to vanquish evil? If one thinks so, then I would contend that they are not acting as a good steward, rather one who is riding the fence, fearful, and apathetic to the plight of their fellow man.

I agree with MaraM, some entities are beyond repair. If there remains a good spark within the individual, then God will sort that out. This is not my responsibility, God can take care of Himself. My priority is to take care of those whom I care for.

Respectfully,
bg04

Nothing that I can see. I am having a hard time seeing this as an answer to the animal society question.
This doesn't make sense without giving scriptural references, and even then I don't think so. If we believe in His Word, then we will not perish. I think Jesus offered the gift of salvation freely, and wants ALL to accept it. (Of course we know many won't.) Its like God saying..."I want you to perish because you don't believe in my Word.....oh....now you do believe in My Word, so now I don't want you to perish." It doesn't make sense.
How do you see your duty to "vanquish evil"...what does that entail for you?
I also agree with this...but who decides they are beyond repair? I certainly refuse to limit the redemptive hand of God. I have seen some extraordinary cases. (Again, look at Saul in the Bible.) Hypothetically speaking, if there is a man that beats an animal...then later becomes a pillar of Christianity and loves God and leads many to the Lord, how would you feel about him? You would want him to be tortured and stoned? I realize this example is stretching, but seriously, have you ever known an animal to be responsible for a human being saved? Therein has to reflect the importance of man over animals.

You presented 'peace loving societies' as a demarcation line between man and animal.



But this is the very crux of Christianity. Those who request salvation shall receive it, those who don't will perish/go to Hell. As we cannot deny the will of God, then this makes perfect sense. Otherwise, there would be no path to eternal life, everyone would be entitled. Not a bad thought really, IMO; but it flies in the face of the foundations of Christianity. To live forever, you must accept that God is the only path. I don't see how this fails to make sense? Even without scriptural references, speaking with any devout Christian will present a similar answer.

My point was that, the path this person chose is not a righteous path. It may turn righteous in time, or it may not, that is his decision. But, as we all know, there are consequences for choice. The law is not always the most effective recourse. Especially in this day in age.



To punish a child when they have hurt another child, intentionally. To stop, with lethal force if necessary, those who wish to do evil against myself or those I love. I mean, I don't live in Middle Earth . I am no war-monger if that is what you are insinuating. Oh right, there are no battles against evil in the Scripture, in which man has been involved.



I decide, if they have chosen to bring their disrepair to my doorstep. And seriously, from our conversations, I think we both know that even if we desired, we could NEVER limit the redemptive hand of God. So that is a frail argument.
Well, Jesus is often compared to a Lamb; what really is the point to that association? The most powerful Steward of Earth IMO, represented by a Lamb, hmmm. Saul did what he did through the Grace of God, not because another man decided. It is always interesting, because Christians, on one hand declare how impotent we are when compared to the power of God; yet, they still believe they have the capacity to shape monumental events, even against God's Will. A bit of a paradox, is it not? I mean, if God has such a path set before a man, as you have constructed above, then it seems inconceivable that the torturing and stoning of such a man would come to fruition. If it did, then it would fly in the face of God's Will, making man more powerful than God.

Please don't think I am personally attacking you or anything. I really enjoy this discussion.
************
Jesus is evidently returning as a lion.

Do you not see a line between us? Can animals set up a peace-loving society? Do they have "beliefs?"

I am still missing the reference here...Salvation is an unmerited gift. It must actually be rejected to perish.
If you are allowed to make this declaration, then allow me to say that this statement...
has no righteous bearing either.
I agree with this statement also, but allow me to present an example. Say your son tortures your own animal. Would you support your animal loving neighbor to exercise whatever consequence he deemed fit for your son, lets say if it was inflicting pain and public embarrassment upon him?
You raise an excellent point here, and this is where I find myself completely separate from the modern-day Christian church. Part of the reason I left my last church.

Although I was a bit surprised to see this topic veer off into religious beliefs, it does seem to apply - so I hope no one minds my adding my own two cents regarding animals and souls.

Actually, in this case, I think I'll let someone else speak for me, since I'm not a Christian - a Vet, Stacy Mantle, wrote this short article and I think it's lovely and hopefully others will agree.

(Quote) "Do Animals Have Souls?

I was talking with a coworker the other day and he informed me that animals do not have emotions. This is just after he told me (the day that I put my dog of 17yrs down) that animals do not have souls and therefore will never enjoy the concept of heaven. Now, this coworker has the disadvantage of being, what I refer to, as a "bible-thumper." He is, in fact, a born-again Christian. Please bear in mind that I have nothing against Christians, nor do I have anything against religion in general. I do, however, have a problem with this coworker passing along faulty information.

Animals do have emotions and they also have souls, and I'll tell you how I know that. In over twenty years of working with animals, I have never seen a kitten duct-tape a live human baby to a freeway. I also have never seen a cat find enjoyment from setting a human on fire. I've never gone hiking in the desert to find a child that dogs have left tied to a stake, without food and water, subjecting it to a painful death in the desert heat. I have never seen a chicken force two unwilling humans to fight in a ring with razor blades attached to their feet while the chickens place bets on who will be the first to die. I haven't seen a puppy place eight children in a gunnysack and drown them in a river. Neither have I seen an eagle aim a shotgun at an unarmed human. I have yet to see a bear kill a human simply to place a head on the wall of their cave. And to this day, I have not seen a pigeon drive a car down the road and aim for humans who were walking around the park.

Let me tell you what I have seen. I have seen my own cats sleep next to me so they may keep me a little warmer while I was ill. I've seen my dogs play games with me just to force a smile to my face. I have seen a cat rush into a burning home not once, not twice, but six times to save her kittens, nearly losing her own life in the process. I have seen a ferret pull a frightened kitten out of a deep hole in the ground. I have seen a coyote fetch another dog so that it may get the proper medical care that it needs. I've seen a dog, who loves to jump on people, avoid jumping on me when I injured my back. I've seen elephants cry. I've seen monkeys scream in empathy when one of their own were injured. I've seen puppies whine all night long when they were separated from their mothers. I've seen a dog pull a child away from a fire.

These are only a few of the things that I've seen. To list them all would take a lifetime, and I think you get my point. As for the soul thing? Well, it is my humble opinion that if you have emotions, any kind of emotions, then you have a soul. Ironically, the pope of the Roman Catholic Church recently stated that he feels the same way.

Now, I can't prove that animals have souls. But then, I can't prove that you or I have one either. And for all those people who firmly believe that animals don't have souls - well, I suppose if there really is a heaven, you'll probably have the job of cleaning out all the litter boxes. " (Unquote)

(Source: http://vetmedicine.about.com/library/viewe...nimal-souls.htm )

As do I.



Of course I see a line between us. Can man set-up a peace-loving society? IMO, no, only God can. Thus, on some realm we are related to animals. Also, we are comprised of the same material. Of course animals have beliefs. They are faced with the proposition a bell sounding equals food, and they place truth in that. Look at Pavlov's dogs. Sure it is Operant Conditioning, but seriously, do we behave much differently?



And how does one reject salvation? I can preach acceptance of salvation while mutilating animals? No, we as humans (not as the luminous beings created in God's Image) and our actions are completely finite. Sometimes there are no apologies and no chances for redemption on this Earth. What happens beyond this plane, I cannot say. However, I will go out on a limb and say that such actions as taken by this fool are in rejection of the Love around us, i.e. salvation.



Why are pain and public embarrasment viewed in such an evil way anymore? Pain is not a bad thing, and having your actions revealed to your community so that you can feel the anger and pain that your actions have caused is not a bad thing. Is it not righteous to rebuke one who has caused ill on his neighbors/you? Then why did Jesus and his Apostles speak out publicly against the Pharisees and Sadducees? Would you say that these actions had no righteous bearing because they entailed pain and public embarrassment? I would hope not.



No. As I alluded to in previous posts, I do think that this person should be punished. Yes, with pain and public embarrassment. However, the judgment should be up to those whom he trespassed against. Were it my animal, then you can bet that my son would be punished, according to my will. Yet, if it were community livestock, then the community decides what to do with my son.

The animal is not the property of my neighbor. They are welcome to their opinion about the matter, and they are welcome to draw their own judgements and conclusions about my son. If that means shunning him, isn't that a form of public humiliation?

We must see beyond our own fears of failing and living with consequence.

This is one of the failings of our current judicial system. The humanity has been stripped from it.

Very pleasant article MaraM.