Now Ive seen this somewhere in the speakeasy before but I wasn't sure about the speakeasy's guidelines on reviving "dead" threads so i decided to start anew.

The thread was about how some parents were using key loggers and such on their childrens PC's. Basically I want your views and opinions.

I know this is all going to depend on your parenting style but here is my view on the matter.

I thought it was disgusting at how many parents were doing this! There were even some people who said that for their children there is no such thing as privacy!! It got me thinking, is there no such thing as trust aswell?

I can see the parents point of view on this. How it is a way of protecting their children but surely there is a different way to do it other than an invasion of privacy like this! To those who think children do not or should not have privacy, I'm going to be blatent here but I think your wrong! Everyone should be entiltled to it. Especially when those children hit the teen years. I would think that every teen values their privacy.

The way this has worked in my family is this. We're given trust. My parents trust me and always have. I was told and taught about all the dangers the internet could bring and it worked. It worked because I was so proud to have my parents trust me like this that I listened to what they said. If it has worked for me and my entire family surely it can work for others aswel.

Maybe its just because of my age but I really cant see myself doing this to my kids in the futre.

i've seen several topics here on BC of parents asking for child monitoring programs. i remember thinking how sad it was that they didn't trust their child, but there are so many strange people in the world, its hard to tell where the line is between keeping your child safe and just invading their privacy... i think that people should at least make sure to TELL their kids that they are being monitored, instead of just snooping around with all of their conversations and whatnot.

this reminds me of something i saw the other day... the way i interpreted the conversation, was there was a woman speaking who has a fifteen (maybe sixteen) year old daughter still makes her daughter use a child's version of AIM. her daughter can only speak to people that her mother adds/approves of, or whatever the process is. i may have misunderstood, but i think that that was what she was saying...

im fifteen myself and that would make me feel awful if my parents did that to me. i understand how parents just want to keep us safe but sometimes it just feels more degrading and embarrassing than anything. also, i began thinking, that in a few years, this woman's daughter was going to be eighteen and off in college living on her own and out of her mom's immediate control. i think that her mom needs to loosen her leash a little bit now. i've heard that one of two things happen to kids who've been kept under constant parental supervision begin college: they either go crazy and do really irresponsible things with their new freedom, or they freak out and have a nervous breakdown

This Thread has been hashed and rehashed many times over. BUT it is a great topic that often evolves peoples views on the subject every time they post.

My $0.02. Child monitoring programs are a great way to keep children safe on the Internet but in no way are a substitute for good parenting.
Content filters are a good way to prevent your child from accessing unwanted site (but they are not complete coverage and are easily broken through).
Keyloggers and the like are a good way to keep a check on where your kids are going and what they've been saying. Just be prepared to check all the sites if you want to confront them (as some websites have unlikely names) and have some tough skin (favorite topic of teens "My parents are mean to me")

As long as children are minors, and are still living under their parents roof, then it's fair game and the parents have the full right to do so.

Just think about this:

If a child doesn't want to be monitored while being on the computer, then the next best thing is to simply take away the Internet access, or simply remove all network cards, including the modem.

Children are that... children. They do not know whats best for them, but the parents do, and if any child isn't doing what he/she shouldn't be doing, then there should be no problem from the children with the monitoring of them.

Children are so vulnerable, they wouldn't see a trap if it slapped them in the face.

Children will expose family and personal information to any and everyone. That's just how they are. It's natural. They say things they shouldn't, and they put parents in bad positions, and most of the time, the child doesn't even realize that they did exactly that.

Key-loggers are great to have, if you have children that are using the Internet.

And there is a 99.99%+ probability that children with Internet access haven't:
a. paid for the computer in which they're using
b. paid any Internet, electric, nor any other bill, whether phone, cable for the services.
c. paid for any software in which they use
d. paid for any repairs, upgrades or otherwise keeping the computer in tip-top shape.

Also, it's not a responsibility for parents to have to even give their children computers nor Internet anyway. And even if the children paid for the Internet, bills, and whatever, as long as they're minors and living with their parents, their parents are responsible for them and their actions.

We all think that children are prey when it comes down to the Internet, but what about the children that are using it as a way to do malicious and sneaky acts?

As long as
child = minor
they are to be monitored when using the Internet. The internet will have them in touch with adults... and if you're a parent, like I am, I'm sure you don't want your child talking to not only strangers, but grown people either that you don't even know.

And lastly, if you told your child that you're monitoring him/her, and then prove it too, chances are, your child will be more careful while surfing the Internet.

That's my take on the subject.

I next to never get in on these topics, and seldom wander from the "software and hardware" sections of this forum, but here goes.....

Ok, I'm old.....33 to be a bit more precise. I have 2 children, my best friend who doubles as my 13 year old son, and my beautiful princess, who mingles with the commoners disguising herself as my 6 year old daughter. It goes without saying that they both mean the world to me, and that there's nothing that I wouldn't do to protect them from any form of harm.

I can see both of your points, and I don't disagree with them....however (yep, there's always a however), how many stories have you read where police have arrested adults for setting up meetings with teenagers and younger children? Lots, to many really. Same goes for how many children come up missing then come to find out that it was a neighbor or local person that took them. Think about how many times you've heard about a 13 year old bringing a gun to school, or a 14 year old getting pregnant by a 18 year old, or kids selling drugs in 7th grade....far to many. Take a look at this map HERE. It depicts the locations of fire arm incidents in schools across the country. No doubt, there are more than what's just listed here.

I bring these points up because in some of the stories that I've read/heard on the news, there's people saying "I never saw this coming".....just like at Columbine high school, then come to find out that there was talks of the event before it happened. If a parent was monitoring their child, then this might have been prevented. It's not all about trust, it's more about finding a balance where trust and protection of your child can find a happy medium.

If I found out that my 13 year old son was planning to meet someone in a park, I wouldn't say "Ok, I trust him." Because that wouldn't keep him very safe if the 13 year old girl he was going to meet was really a 45 year old pervert. Now, I trust my son to go and meet people, but I will most definitely monitor the meeting too. Example, my son had been talking to a girl from another school. He wanted to go to her house and meet her.....Ummm...no. I made him set it up at the mall, and he could meet her there. It's a public place and chances are that he's not going to get kidnapped. My wife met her parents before he was allowed to go over to her house. Now he can go over there if he asks, and if there's an adult (her mom or dad) there. See, balance of trust and protection.

There's a kid in my sons school who has done drugs. He and my son used to be friends (not good friends, just friends). Now, my son can no longer see him or associate with him. He can't even be at a friends house if the other kid is there. Should there be a drug bust, and my son was there, and even if he didn't know about any drugs being there at all, he's still "guilty by association" as far as the police would be concerned, and would most likely be taken into custody. I don't let my son hang out with him because he's a bad influence, I don't want my son exposed to drugs, and yes, by not letting him associate with this kid, I'm protecting him.

Same goes for my daughter, I've always taught her that she can talk to strangers, and to not be shy as long as myself or mommy is around. I've also always taught her that if she finds herself alone, then she's not to talk to any strangers, or go with them, and that she's to find a police man (woman) or a fire fighter and tell them that she's lost. If some one tries to take her then I've taught her to yell "Stranger! Help!" I trust my daughter won't wander off so I don't have to hold her hand or have her on one of those leash things for toddlers, but if she does, I've shown her how to protect herself. See, another balance of protection and trust.

Don't look at it as an invasion of privacy, or a way for parents to control you. It's more of a pain in the rear than you know for a parent to worry about their children. Think of it as a display of affection, a way of them looking out for you, protecting you from those that might cause you harm. Believe me, you'll do the same when you get older and have children. A parents worst nightmare is to lose one of their children. Put yourself in your parents shoes, and I'm sure that you'll understand. I think that you'd be hard pressed to find a parent that disagrees with me about protecting their children.

For the younger kids (young adults), keep in mind, it only takes one mess up to wipe out all the good things that you've ever done. Would that little bit of freedom be worth calling your mom or dad from jail because you were hanging out with the wrong crowd when you were told not to?

For the parents, you understand why wild animals sometimes eat their young.

In a way yes....In a way. You see life is an experience and this is how my family sees it. If I had been hanging out with the wrong person and got arrested because of them that would have been my fault and my experience. Dont get me wrong. If it had happened my parents would have come down on me like a tonne of bricks!! But it would have been one of lifes many lessons. I think this approach of parenting as prepared me for life very well as in my opinion I am ALOT more mature than most people I know that are my age. They never chose for me who I was allowed to see and who I wasnt. That said, if they knew that me going out with a bunch of thugs, possibly commiting crime, etc they would simply not let me out... Its hard to explain really unless youve lived "under their reign"

I may be portraying my parents in the wrong light here. I realise what you and walkman have said. Children are children after all and they need protecting by their parents. As a kid I did not have direct access to the internet, I had to use my dads PC. But I was allowed to browse freely (almost). Of course he was abe to put protections on there against the seriously disturbed websites and seeing as hes the chief of IT at the place he worked there was no way I was going to get around these protections, but I was still allowed to (for the most part) browse without him breathing down my neck so to speak. If he did check what I had looked at after and disagreed with anything that I was looking at (not that there should be) he still hasnt said anything.

Because I was not kept on such a tight leash I did make mistakes. I still do. But my parents are always there to pick me back up, dust me down and give me a clip round the ear for being so stupid . But again, this is very hard were the internet is concerned because there are so many people out there that can take advantage. As many of you had said, it needs balance.

Walkman: so because the kids have not paid for what they are using they have no rights to privacy? If it is a child (say 9-12) using it I dont think they are going to be able to get rid of the blocks on their own. If it were a teenager your dealing with something completely different. Sure, there is nothing wrong to monitor your children but there are other ways to do it.

I'm fifteen, I have four sister, two of which have had problems with the internet, and talking to strangers. My older sister, who is 19 now, still uses YIM, even after my parents forbid her to do so.

My younger sister, which has learned, and used neopets, found a website to get a free email, and started emailing this guy, who said he was a 9 year old.

I got into my sister's email, and showed my parents, and the so called "kid" was too smart for a 9 year-old, and misspelled words on purpose.

My parents wouldn't mind to install a key-logger, or some other monitoring device/program. They work to pay for food for us kids, our clothes, our allowances (HA, I never have had one yet), their taxes for our schools, and so much more.

I don't like being monitored, who does? but our parents look out for us, because their parents did, and we will have to for our kids, no matter what way it is.

The internet is an awesome place, and one of the most dangerous places too. It is a great tool for learning about anything, and in that anything, there are those people who love to prey on kids for fun, and pleasure. I will not stand for that, and neither will my parents.

-JoshT

At the moment, I have 3 children.... ages 19, 20, 21.

My point to the post is that if a child is going to be using the internet, they are going to be monitored, which would mean logging their key strokes. I'm not saying that a parent must stand there and watch their children while they're online, but they should be aware that children do stray away from parental advise... Even grown people stray away from their parents advise, so I know the children would need that extra monitoring.

As long as you're a minor, and as long as you're a minor living under your parents roof, you can not make your own decision of doing right or wrong. You only make the decision of doing wrong by doing what you're told not to do. Children aren't in any position to say "Well, if I mess up it's on me." That can be done by the child while not in the presence of their parents, like... in school.... walking to the store, malls... coming home from school... going to the movies with friends etc..... when the parents aren't around. But when you're home, that's where your wisdom comes from,,, your parents only. No one in the streets will care for you like your parents do and they surely won't be there to help you out like your parents will, and do.

Children get all the freedom in the world now,, especially since the Internet came around, because many parents don't monitor them while they're online, and as far as I'm concerned on that matter, it just like letting your child wander off to a far off place and you not caring.

I know you children want more freedom and privacy you think you deserve, but I think you get your fair share when you're able to sleep in your bed at night, with your door closed, and use the bathroom, with the door closed. You're not being monitored and you have all the privacy you need.

And because you haven't done anything to warrant your parent to have to monitor you, don't think for a second that your parents are not to act like parents. They care.. and if a child understands that their parents care and love them very much, a child should mature enough to say "Yeah.... my parents love me very much, and I understand why they're being that way."

Then you have the issue of something going wrong with your computer, and when you confront the child about it, they will either tell you that they didn't do it, or they forgot to tell you that they did it. Or how about a friend that I know... and the child accidently deleted some Windows files, causing the computer to not load up again.

But children are more vulnerable than their parents, and it's easy to get children to do things that the child doesn't realize what they're actually doing. I know a child wouldn't want to come home to find out that someone has broken into their home and done some harm to their family members. But if they can only realize that they gave out their personal information to a stranger... and possibly a neighbor too, they would have a different out take on this monitoring of the internet usage.

If a parent has a job working on computers all day long to support the family, and they are monitored too on their work computers, what makes you think that a child shouldn't be monitored.. on his home computer?

To be honest with you?.... I think it was the mistake of the lifetime for parents to even let their minor children surf on the Internet in the beginning. But since they do, the children are trying to take it a step further, and that is now they don't want to be monitored either.

You can ask my children yourself..... never in their minor ages of their lives have I ever allowed, nor let them get on the internet... not once. I let them play games and I've done many things for them, but they have never in their lives surfed on the Internet under my watch.... And I've been online since 1988 or 1989. And that's because I know how the internet/chat rooms was/is, and how easy it is for a child to make a mistake...... shooot, just look around here, for example, you have many grown people that can't even control their own computers, because of whatever fault of their own, and do you think those same people should be having their children exposed to their incompetence? on the Internet? No... not really.

And lastly, another reason I never let my children (during their minor years) surf, nor go online was because of what I see now:

no#1. Sad to say, but the children of today have been dumbed down by thinking that the Internet is their answer to them becoming grown.
no#2. children of today can no longer do arithmetic with a paper and pencil, all because society dumbed them down, and told them how easy and better the computers are.. and the children still believe it.
no#3. Schools now allow children to use calculators. Many children aren't able to think, nor do math on their own any more. But those same children know all there is to know about surfing online.
no#4. Children are exposed to too many grown people that fill their heads with the wrong things, and the children take it and run with it too.... and then the parents are wondering why their child is being that way. Influence from a grown person. A child?.. that's different than a grown person.
no#5. Children's reading and understanding/comprehension level have dropped to an all time low now, since they're able to surf online.... and less and less children read books anymore.
no#6. Most children born in the 1980's and up have never heard of an 8-track player.. have never saw, nor used a television where you have to manually turn the channels to get to the UHF/VHF channels.....have never heard of the Vietnam War, the Civil War, .... and.... cannot name the very 1st president of the United States.... and let alone... name the rest of them... in order.
no#7. Children's spelling has become so low, many children can't even spell dictionary. It's amazing. Many common words they don't even know the meaning to them.

I can go on and on and on about this.... but these are some of the reasons why children need to be monitored while being on the Internet. They know not of the past at all, but are stuck on today and tomorrow (not that there's anything wrong with that)... but they don't use the internet to research useful information.

How many children do you think will tell their parents after getting off the Internet that they've learned something? Not many... and that's because the Internet is a way for children to escape reality, and parents allow it. I bet all the children can tell everything in the world about uTube, chat rooms, MySpace, and a host of other mediums out there that are dumbing down people, and especially the children.

since the internet, there has been more killings, drug usage, amongst the children of the US and other parts of the world... but mainly the US... all due to parents not monitoring them while they're online. And guess what?..... it's getting worse every day.

Because of the Internet, you now have children driving cars known as (ghost riding) or something like that. Children are exposed to the kinds of crap that will lead them down a deadly path, and parents have every right to do what they can do to minimize it.

If any child has children when they get older, watch how their attitudes will change, just to protect their children. And although the attitude towards things can change and be your own decision to make while you're still a minor, your actions aren't, as long as you're living under your parents roof.

Again, thats my take on this.

Letting your kids do what they want is stupid.

Little kids would be happy to put their fingers in a electrical socket.

Let that be a life lesson too?

Just like that many things can kill them or get them into trouble.

As long as they live under your roof they will do as YOU say.

Yes they need some privacy but its your choice how much they get or need according to how they present themselves by their actions.

Why not let the baby run into the road and have his freedom. If he gets hit let it be a life lesson. No way!

Be the parent and teach them whats right and whats wrong. They wont never know if they arent taught or they will learn later when they get hurt.

About the keyloggers.

If your kid goes to bad sites and you found him doing it and told him not too. Then you can watch them if you want. Its not breaking their privacy really its being a good parent. If they dont go to those sites again I think the keylogger should be shut off.

You should watch out for your kids. Not listening has gotten many killed.

Amen!!

I do agree. As much as I'd love to give kids total freedom on the internet, it's not so much them I don't trust - rather it's the often scary people they can unknowingly get involved with.

But when it comes to their diaries/journals (do kids even do that anymore, I wonder?) - it's hands-off for parents and siblings!

Children don't do diaries anymore, and many of them will think of it as childish.... forgetting about themselves at that moment.

And besides, to write/print in a diary requires a child to write/print, and they just aren't haven't that anymore.

I'd be surprised if a child can sharpen a pencil in a hand-held pencil sharpener. They just don't do that anymore. And we parents are left with the remaining text of our society.

Watch how a child will take upto 3 lines to make a character, whereas it would only take 2 lines. They want to write less and less as possible.

I've gotten the real skinny on it all when in 1996 when I was a G.E.D Teacher. I know.. and plus raising 3 children all on my own. I've gotten to see two different worlds, all rolled up in one.

Although my children know how to use the internet to this day, I'm glad I've kept them away from it while they were minors.

Im not saying that at all!! I said that it is a parents responsibility to look after their children and keep them safe! What parent would let their child run into the road or stick their fingers into plug socckets?!? Youve missed my point completely!

What im trying to say is there is a line that needs to be seen. Letting your kids get hurt is just bad parenting but to choose their friends for them? To read, what to them, could be private things? To let them see only what you want them to see?

Like I said there is a line between bad parenting and completly dominating ones life.

It depends on the child aswell. If, like i think what you meant, the child in question is only say 6/7 then, yes. A certain amount of monitering should be in place. But what happens when they get older? I was very independent when I was 14/15 and was allowed to make most of my choices. Your saying when they hit this age the same rules should reply? I was bought up this way and I am just fine!



Im hoping thats sarcasm there.

Thinking in generalities doesn't seem to reach a solution, since it ignores the varying degrees of maturity, education, and sophistication of the individual child- - -not to mention those of the parents themselves. As a child shows maturity, so it should be allowed increased freedom from close supervision, and the possibility of learning from its mistakes.
Regards,
John

You know jgweed. I think you have hit the nail on the head. Like many in this thread have said its a case of balance, which would alter depending on the child and parent. What I cant get my head around though is the people who are (or seem to be) completely against giving their children any breathing room whatsoever.

Maybe its just because this style of parenting worked with me I cant understand what other parents go through. But then I see plenty of parents who use the same general approach and it seems to work.

"To let them see only what you want them to see? "

The parents choice completely. Not going to let a 8 year old in a R movie are you? Some parents would. R movies arent fit for adults at least most of them.

"but to choose their friends for them"

Thats part of good parenting too. If more parents did this we would have a huge drop in crime rate. You hang around the wrong croud you can start to act like them.

Know your kids friends. Even if your kid never did drugs if they got found with someone who had drugs by the police they would get busted too.

To athelos.....

Are you an adult posing as a child/minor? Your reason of the logic doesn't seem to be of such.

Like I said before..... I have a 19, 20, & a 21 year old.... and although I never mentioned this.... but my son is the oldest of the three.

Your post is too mature to be as a child to think grown people like myself or others like myself are to be thinking that they are doing wrong to their children, concerning the Internet. I am thinking you are an Internet child predator, and if I'm incorrect, I hope there are others watching this post.

But if you're a minor, a child?...... you have no idea of what you're saying.

I know this stared out as a topic that I knew what I would be getting into.... so if you're really a minor, let's see how respectful you'll be by not posting back to this subject. Because you already gave me the indication that you're not a minor.... and your demeanor is waaaayyyyyyyyyy off track. Ask any parent that is a well known member here on this site.

If I'm wrong (which I know I know I'm not)........ you already stepped over your boundaries....... and I'm not even your parent...... Right now you shouldn't even be engaging in this topic at all.

If you were respectful, it would have been a different story..... but I've already read you by the way you responded. A real child knows where there place is....... and if you think that you're not out of place, then there is a real problem... mainly with your attitude, especially if you're a child.... and I mean a minor. And since you're so smart, you aught to know what a minor is.

BleepingComputer is for helping people... not hurting them....... and if you think you'll hurt me or any other member here..... you're sadly mistaken, especially if you're posing as a minor.

If you are a minor..... all I ask is that you respect this forum. BleepingComputer doesn't have to put up with you, nor I. So please.... respect their home. You'll never win at trying to do harm to a person in their own home...... and while I'm here, I'm home.. ....... if you feel the same way........prove it.

===================================================================

There is a balance between children and parents.

And the balance is that the parents have the right-away & the upper-hand......... if you know it or not.


Respect the members here.... and not only that........ respect your elders if you're really a minor... because you're about to cause yourself trouble when you just want to get help here.

The title of this topic is Betrayal Of Privacy Or Good Parenting?

no#1. You're showing much betrayal here... and I do pray for you
no#2. Your privacy is not not private, because you don't know how to be respectful to your elders
no#3. You aren't showing any good faith in the parenting of your parents.

You're either an un-supervised child... or
You're an a adult.... but you'll get dealt with

but either way you want it.... you dug your own grave..... now dig yourself out of it..... especially if you're a minor, with a smart mouth.

Hopefully BleepingComputer will see these posts, and make their decision.

RESPECT YOUR ELDERS!!!!

I'm out... I have a 19, 20 & a 21 year old to deal with.... and I'm 41....just do the math ......... ok?

Oh dear, perhaps I missed something but please don't be angry with athelos, Walkman - gentle hug.

But, while I could be wrong, perhaps athelos, when he stated, "some parents never give children any breathing space at all" might have meant parents like mine. Loving, wonderful parents but parents who didn't understand that children learn very early 'consequences' if allowed to make choices for themselves. (For instance, something as minor as saying calmly, 'You need not eat the brussel sprouts but you have a choice - eat them or not have dessert" - and then let child decide and say no more about it. From there, decisions that don't affect a child's health or safety should perhaps be more readily given as a child grow and proves him or herself. (My parents can't be faulted as they were already retired long before I arrived and I literally can't imagine what it must be like to have a little one at that age - eek!).

It's virtually impossible to treat all children - or teens - alike, just as we don't treat all adults alike. And while athelos has proved himself trustworthy to his parents, we all know, and I suspect agree, that not all kids listen to the warning and advise or behave honourably with the trust they are given. It must be hard for the ones who feel they've earned that trust to not be given it - but heaven help us as parents if we give it and a disaster happens to our precious children. No easy answers, I guess.

It is not inappropriate to remind posters in the Speakeasy Forum that all members should be treated with the respect due to any individual as such, and their right to voice opinions tolerated. One may attack the opinions expressed but not the motives nor the person expressing them.
John
Global Moderator

I think if kids arnt given enough breathing room...then ultimately the consequences of the parents actions, which i dont seem to think has been considered yet? is the kids may well take it? do kids not diserve respect aswell?

In saying that, a strict parent may not be justifying their strict actions with "i cannot trust my child" but more "i cannot trust the internet". I think that perhaps if the child was aware of this completely, being careful would not be a matter of respect for parents but a matter of understanding through good communication which can only come from a respect that is mutual.

NICE ONE!!! nn23

Parents have strict duties... and it's to protect their children.

To athelos...
Although it seems personal..... it's not quite. There is a thin line between obedience and disobedience.

When you get to be my age, with children, you'll see everything I'm talking about. To be honest with you, you'll see many of the things whether you want to or not.

And although I see you as a respectful child, there are boundaries that children cross, even mine have done so.

My youngest daughter is doing time behind bars, in a state prison, all because she didn't listen. These are the decisions that we all make on our own, and I know that..... but it's a decision that a parent has to make... to make sure that their children are safe and sound. My daughter will be out soon..... but the impact she has already done to her life..... just by not listening and taking the advice of myself and her mother.... and probably other grown people, like her grandmothers, grandfathers, uncles, aunts....etc. She pays the price, and her mother and I are paying the price.... right now.

You know, I've seen a 8 1/2 x 11 sign in an office, some years ago.... and it said this...... (I'm going to para-phrase it as best as possible)


The moral of that sign was to let children know that they are at a losing battle when they think that their parents aren't to say anything to them. And I agree with it too.

I love everyone here. I have no boundaries of love. But I want any, and all children to know that you are to respect your parents.... whether you like it or not. If you're not being mis-treated, then why would you mis-treat them?

If a parent feels it deem able to monitor their child's online activities, there should be no problem.... and if there is a problem with it........ just take away the internet from them, and then you'll see just how truly a child is towards their parents.

Nothing can ever change the fact that I'm a parent, but everything can change the fact that a child doesn't want to respect their parents.

My daughter is paying her price now.. and hopefully she learned her lesson at her young age. But every one of you minors don't have to go through what she put herself through... and her mother and I, at the same time.

Trust me on this one....... I know, and I'm living experience of it too.
=====================================================================

I love you all for the comments and such. You all made sense to me, and I hope I made sense to some of you.

We all, as a parent, that have minor children have the duty to protect them while they're on the Internet. We have to breathe down their back, but watch their back. We don't want them to feel like we're disloyal to them, but show them that we love them and care for them. And we don't have to monitor every move they make, but make it known to them that as long as they're on the Internet........ you'll be monitoring them.

I'm out........ I love you all.

Wow!...Where to start? Well firstly i'm 17. So where I live I am classed as a minor. Simple.

I'm at a loss to where I was supposed to be disrespectful to anyone on this thread. I am actually very respectful person. Not just to my elders but to anyone. The way I have been bought up is that respect is earned not just given. I therefore respect those who show me the same respect and anyone who actually knew me in person would tell you that.

Let me explain a few things. Hopefully I wont get into too much trouble as these stories involve me breaking some laws.

I used to drink..I know I know underage but basically I was out with some friends drinking. I had WAY too much that night and woke up the other day lying in bed with not much memory of the night before and a splitting head ache. My mum said to me when I entered the kitchen that all my sisters had done the same thing and she is going to set a new rule now that I have done it too. If i get that drunk again I wont be allowed back into the house till I sobered up. I would have to stay with friends. She didnt say "NEVER DRINK AGIAN YOUR GROUNDED!!" or anything like that. She gave me the choice. I went through that mistake and I lived with the consequences. Since then the most Ive drunk is a few beers while at parties, etc. I learned my lesson and I learned it because I experienced it first hand.

Another story. I got in trouble with the police at a young age. Nothing serious at all, just got a warning and they notified my parents. I got one hell of a telling off that day all because I had hung out with the wrong crowd. My parents knew I hung out with them and they expressed their dislike of them but they never forced me to stop seeing them. You know what happened? I stopped being friends with them. I had learnt my lesson again and I didnt want anything to do with them or anything that would make my parents whom I loved think that way of me.

What I was trying to say is that even though children are...well, children they are still people that are constantly learning and somethimes the most effective lessons can be lifes lessons. Sure they are going to go wrong but isnt the point of the parent to try to help them along the way as best as possible? I dont know as I have no kids of my own.

In regards to the keyloggers I think its an age thing. I have said beore and I will say again. What I call "true" minors (i.e. 12 and under) should have a certain amount of monitering. If only to be there for them. Im not sure of your rating system in America. What is an R rated film? Anyway, as a kid I saw movies that were classified 18. I usually just got scared or wasnt interested or knew it was wrong and turned it off. Block off the sites that are REALLY disturbing and if you get really worried have a look into the history. If you notice something strange or possibly dangerous (e.g. chat rooms, etc) explain to your kids about them and then keep a closer eye on them. With teens its going to be harder as they are aware of what they are doing and should know all about the dangers involved with the internet.

Firstly, can i say Walkman thankyou so much for telling your story. It gives a much better idea now of where you have been coming from with your points and i now feel that i can relate to them. I do hope your daughter finds her way back on track, i will be thinking of her.

And this is quite off topic, but seeing as the topic was set by you athelos, i can see no harm cause it relates to what you were saying about 18 rated movies. I watched 18's like from the age of 5 or 6. i do not condone this, there is no directed point to what i am saying its just a bit of stuff. Yeah, i've found that i get more freaked out by movies now than i EVER did as a child ha ha. Gor fests make me cringe now, even though i still get a certain entertainment from them but when i was a child i wasnt bothered in the slightest what so ever, it was a fantasy world to me then i guess. Its funny to think i was more in touch with the fictional fantasy side of it then than i am now as an adult. I'm a proper pillow hugger now ha ha.

Thanks again for that Walkman and i think your quote is very applicable to the older child who does actually have other options. As soon as i saved enough money to get me bus fare, i was OUT the door like a flash!!! But thats a different story.

NICE ONE!!!! nn23

As far as Raising Children,you Reap what you Sow.

I'm going to start this off with privacy issues in general, then move to privacy on the internet.

I think as children become older they need to be given both greater freedoms and greater responsibilities, else how will they handle either when they are on their own? This is a process that starts even in the toddler stage. Children need to learn that there are consequences for their actions. I think once children reach puberty, their rooms should not be entered by a parent without that parent first knocking and receiving permission to enter unless it is an emergency. How is a child to learn to respect someone's privacy if that child's privacy is not respected?

My mother barged into my room all the time, without knocking, without request. She barged into my brother's room the same way. What's worse, she wanted me to go into his room to put away his clothes, make his bed, clean his room. I felt very uncomfortable and uneasy doing this as she was forcing me to invade my brother's privacy and further was teaching him lack of responsibility. He, of course, felt there was absolutely nothing wrong barging in on me in the bathroom or my bedroom no matter what I was doing or my state of dress or lack thereof. There was no way I could enforce my privacy in my own room given the blatant disregard of that privacy by my own mother. The only thing I could do was to arrange the furniture in such a way that the door couldn't be opened at all, and that worked only when I was in it. Incidentally, he was older than I was. And she had the utter gall to wonder why he didn't respect her privacy?

I had completed my first year of college, and I was home for the summer. I finally got a summer job, demanding a great deal of physical labor that tired me out by the end of the work day. I came home from work to discover that Mom had emptied the entire closet, dresser, and dressing table, and picked up everything that was on the floor (wastebasket, shoes, rug etc.) and piled everything on my bed. My spare muddy working shoes were sole down on top of an old doll that had been my grandmother's and which was dressed in fancy garments made from delicate materials. Mom thought it was time for me to 'clean my room' - her way. Great.

Children need boundaries yes, but they need to be sensible. And one of the most important things is to keep open communication with the children. In order to become trustworthy, one must first be trusted.

Children and the internet. Sure, have site blocking software on, as well as other security stuff and discuss with them why you do this and be an example by not going to those sites yourself. (Of course, there are those teens, a number of them here on BC, who actually help fight malware infection and in order to test security products etc. they do in fact need to go to some of those sites. Of course these folks know the dangers of the internet and how to protect secure information, better than a lot of folks in their 30's and older). Keyloggers I think are going too far; that is equivalent to tapping the phone and listening to their phone conversations or reading their personal mail. I also think having computers in the bedroom is rather absurd for adults as well as children, but again perhaps there are space constraints that make this necessary.

In my opinion, being too restrictive is as bad as being too lenient.

Orange Blossom

(hello, this is my first post on bleepincomputer, but i've been here for a while. i think this thread needs the opinion of someone who this directly relates to, so i registered. (yes, the 14 year old wants to rant)

I've been reading this thread for a while, and felt a need to comment on it.
(accidently posted: editing, wait a moment)

I agree. Parents who give their kids no trust or privacy, will receive none as well. This goes for respect too. If the parent won't trust their kid or give them privacy, the kid will begin to hate his parents. Such hate means they will often ignore their parents, and it is not uncommon for them to become flat-out rebellious. If you trust your kid, they will trust and listen to you. This doesn't mean they won't decide to explore pornography, but at least they wont do it out of rebelliousness.

Of course, you shouldn't be too lenient. It's a hard structure to follow, how to be strict without being too strict. There's the old saying "spare the rod spoil the child" which is absolutely true. You must punish your child for being bad, but try cutting them some slack if they're improving. But don't go invading certain parts of their privacy. As far as the Net goes, if you don't want them looking at porn or whatever, tell them that. If they do anyway, change their settings so they cant go to certain sites. Parents, you have your boundaries as well as your kids, if you ever want your kids to trust you and not hate you.

Speaking from the ripe age of 17 i cherish my privacy and freedoms. I can totaly understand and even agree there are many websites and things minor shouldn't get into theese range from porn , Rathed R movies, and the chemicals under the sink. But i also believe the best defence for a parent for thier child is knowledge, by knowledge i mean common sence, and values that the child/teen will hold onto even when lets say "all my friends are doing it".
Example : I recently went to a big party , boys and girls in the same house all hanging out , and we had a great time that is until some one thought it was a good idea to break out drugs and booze, at this point everything my parents told me made sense, common sense that told me that i should jut go hang out somewhere else so i got up and left with all who i could get to listen to me. unfortunately alot of people stayed, and that night a few wanted to go get something to eat, but they were drunk or high and got in a serious accident killing a friend of mine and the house was raided by police.
Kids need to have the power of knowledge knowing that a stranger who want to meet you is something you stay away from, and that drinking chemicals under the sink can kill you , just like drugs can.

I think if the kids can respect thier parents they deserve more freedom, but if they cant respect parents/others then they cant handel more freedom than what they already have.

Often parents must choose between being a friend or being a parent to their child. Sadly, too many choose to be a friend and deny their child the benefit of discipline. Parental control is an absolute necessity, as the state of our civilization reflects.

athelos, while I understand where you are coming from (I'm only 25 myself, with no children), it is foolish and selfish to think that your actions and mistakes are "only on you." Such a mindset is often indicative of immaturity, because as we get older, a stark realization occurs. Our actions are truly as ripples on a pond. They do not only affect us, but all around us, even those we love and wish to protect. As a human being, one cannot insulate themselves from other human beings.

Thus, if a child accepts a piece of adware without the parent's knowledge, identity theft could ensue, robbing his/her parents of years of hard work. (And let me tell you, making it in this world is HARD WORK!) What entitles that child to make that decision for their parents? They will not clean up the mess, pay for the lawyers, contact the credit companies, etc. Sure it was an honest mistake, but that does not make its repercussions any softer. True maturity is being able to account for one's actions and deal with all consequences.

Self-preservation is a notion that most folks possess. If, in order to preserve my life and the life of those I love, I have to assume a role in which I am looked at as over-bearing, then so be it. I care too much.



Sometimes, the best possible guidance a parent can give is not letting their child make the mistake in the first place. I didn't have to walk around the house with a loaded gun in order for my father to make it clear that such action was unacceptable. This life demands pro-action from parents, even if that threatens their "friendship" with their children. We all make more than enough mistakes as minors, parents are there to guide children away from as many mistakes as they can, and guidance demands observation.

You seem like a well-intentioned person, but understand that the laissez-faire approach to parenting that you champion is complicit to the general decay of today's youth. There is just too much going on in the world, especially on the web. Too many choices to make with too little guidance. Sincerely, how many understand that the choices they make and the consequences of those actions affect more than just them? That is what a parent's involvement shows, that they care enough about the child and themselves to stop unwanted consequences.

my friend has just left his wife and moved back in with his parents ,he,s 40 and his mum still has the same rules for him although a little relaxed now but she tells him off for coming home drunk staying out late and a lot more .the point i,m trying to make is it does,nt matter how old you are your parents will always worry ,and if you live in there home you will just have to accept that ,whether you agree or not as for the teenages repling to this topic you are all in for a rude awakening being an adult is more a state of mind than anything else regardless of age (i can still be childish at 33)i mean what you think you know and what you say you know "you don,t" that why until you have a family of your own and have the worries involved in parenting you will never be able to answer the question posted.parenting is just one worrie after another
i,e can i feed my children ,can i clothe my children,will my child be safe on the street and on and on and on
most teenagers still live at home there parents still pay for everything for them so having privacy is something you should earn it is not your right .

thanks for allowing me to rant a bit

I'm happy my parents aren't doing anything like that. Not that they would need to, either. They trust me, I trust them, thats how we roll. It's also about the age of the kids. No small/really young kid should have an PC of their own, or even a lot of time available alone on the net without supervision but when it comes to teen years, I absolutely can't understand how parents can supervise with keyloggers or such. Of course, it's also about how the kids were raised but I'm all for raising them with a sense of freedom; the fact that they *know* they are being trusted and warned about things, will help ever so far. It will just give them the feel of being untrusted if they can see they are being watched all the time. What would you achieve with keyloggers anyway? If your kid notices it, it won't help anything since s/he is not going to say or do what s/he was going to, if anything.

I can't understand too strict parents either, I spose it's one way to approach raising kids but they will probably be fed up with army-like commands. I for instance, have always known where the line is drawn and my parents have made it clear. I've never actually tried breaking the boundaries and I have no need to. Some will just grow rebelling every decision of their parents if they are raised too strictly and, I cant see anything good with that.. Although again, it's just all about the person and how they see things.

Heres a easy solution for parents sit down and talk to your kids especially teens tell them that you dont want them doing certain things online but try and be responsible but remember we will rebel one way or another in some way and remember you where like them once so try and think about this the way you would have back then

I don't believe parents should put filters and things as such on kids computers. My grandparents trust me enough to not do this because they believe by doing this it would seem as though they don't trust me.

I think that if parents say ban their kids from MySpace, bebo, MSN, AIM etc the kid is going to use them behind their parents back for sure.
All parents really have to do is set in some rules. All as parents have to do is inform their kids of the dangers of the internet, tell their kids not to give away personal details and not necessarily watch their kids all the time while they're online. Just pop in occasionally to see how they are.

Its quiet cruel for parents to ban kids from stuff on the net because those kids don't know what they're missing.

Welcome Tarra!! And I do understand what you're saying, I think - trust is a wonderful think and it works both ways with kids and parents/grandparents. How wonderful to find someone like you setting such a great example - yipee!!


We don't have a filter on our computer either and it's used frequently by our grandchildren (after a lot of gentle chats given ito explain that all of the internet isn't safe for anyone, let alone them). And I will continue to trust them - as they can trust me.

The problem I think would come if their behaviour started to change radically - or I sensed something 'not quite right' re the computer use. And if that time ever comes they can still trust me - trust that I love them enough to use 'tough love' as well as the gentle hugs.

PM ... I have this wee theory ... kids are not dumb nor less 'smart' than we adults. Nope, they are just less experienced and generally shorter than us and every bit as important as anyone else!

While i agree with most of the arguments, i think that while parents must ultimately educate and guide their children on how to use the internet, another aspect is the child him or herself. A lot of children are actually more technologically advanced than their parents, and i think that, at least some of the time, if they are interested in getting passed the tricks, they can - even if it means going to the library or something (and i admit i havent really thought about it).

IMO, the strictness of a parent depends on the maturity of a child. My cousin was allowed to go on to websites such as myspace and msn groups by her parents (who admittedly know nothing about the net) at the age of 12/13. She then used her blog to insult her parents, sister and family, while incorporating rather morbid images on to the site, which was not acceptable to her parents. When they found out, they deleted the accounts, and banned her from using them until today and she is now 14.

On the flip side, my parents never put up any restrictions for the net, i was allowed MSN from about 9 years old, and was only told that i could not talk to people i did not know - and i didnt. Im now 18, and havent had a virus or single problem on the net. Admittedly i dont go looking for bad sites, but if your careful and smart enough, you can just not get caught in trouble. Kids can be smarter than they can be given credit for, and if they understand that there is bad things out there, they arent as likely to go looking for it.

I guess all im trying to say, is that there is no finite answer to this question. Is keylogging a bad thing? Maybe tell your kids that you are doing it, as a prevention. Hiding it probably is, since thats deceit, but if there is no other option, and you suspect something then i think you should. Doubting your kids isnt actually that great for them mentally. Kids need to gain self confidence, which sometimes means letting them screw up and other times controlling things for them. And this scale varies for the time, place and child. This is done through trust and doubt combined. But regarding the net especially, the most important thing is education, otherwise your kid is going to grow up, move out and accidently give out their credit card number to some con artist.

It seems to me that every family situation is different, just as every child matures at a different rate. But I do think that at some point in a child's life, parents need to extend (perhaps gradually and as it is earned by actions) more and more trust and freedom to their children. This means that parents should also expect them to stumble on occasion and be prepared to use this as a way to further educate them. Keeping a young person in an overly protective environment where failure is next to impossible is not always and ultimately in the best interest of the development of a child.
Cheers,
John

Yes, I agree and, in fact, I suspect good parenting in general would require one to know that no two children are alike nor should be treated alike at the best of times or when they cause hiccups in their own lives. Gentle smile.

What amazes me,is that one has a Manual to go by, for just about everything in Life,except to me the two most important.
Marriage and good Parenting.A lot of new Mothers wouldn't have a clue how to handle Children with behavior problems.
I have seen all too often,some Mothers letting their Children run rampant,and other Mothers over protective,resulting in that Child having difficulties to adjust socially.Every Child is different and requires different methods and Psychology,IMHO.

I laughing to myself because how right you are, DSTM! So many books out there on parenting but how if a new parent to know which ones are truly a good reference or which are not. Trial and error - intestesting way to raise children and build a marriage, isn't it? Gentle smile.


When I read a topic re: "Parenting/Invasion of Privacy", I always think about parents who read their children's journals (whether online or on paper), who hide cameras around the house to record children's actions while they are not there (not speaking of watching nannies, etc) - if a 'crime' hasn't been commited by a kid, don't assume they will commit one. Children - and adults - often become what we expect of them, whether good or bad, perhaps?

My parents don't do that....they don't even know how to turn the computer on.If i found out that i had a keylogger on my computer i'd probably throw the computer out of the window and convince my mom to buy me another one....which she will since i need to upgrade my computer.

Considering I am the tech savvy one of the family, my parents wouldn't even have known what the word key logger is. So I can't say they spied on my usage of the net.

As long as the parent has good communication with their children and teaches them about the risks of the internet then there should be nothing to worry about. Honestly if you install a keylogger, why not install a bug on your kids clothes so you can spy on them all the time. Actually while your at it maybe a few cameras in their bedrooms and bathrooms.

It's a complete invasion of privacy. Someone earlier said the internet is a very dangerous place. Probably the drive home from school is more risky and life threatening, don't let them swim in the surf, sharks live in the ocean.

I don't think many Australian parents would even consider this (I am from Australia).

Only stories I have heard seem to come from America.

taylor88 I agree.

Most Australian families are quiet laid back with their kids online.
No one I know monitors what their kids do online. Heck, my family let me have my computer in my bedroom, with the door shut and they don't care what I'm doing as long as I'm not hooking up with old creepy men or looking at porn.
And since they know I'm not they are fine with me using the computer.

Although they wonder what all the fuss is about me being on the computer all the time

My parents never understood how I could sit in one place for so long :D

how do they know you are NOT doing these things?

They trust me.
And I don't hook up with anyone online. Especially creepy old men *shudder*
As for porn, I think it'd be weird to watch a person or persons do the dirty with themselves or eachother

They are trusting parents. Either tell your kids your monitoring their use, don't monitor them, or don't allow them internet (even though thats a terrible alternative). Least it is honest.