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nn23
hysterical.gif I always find this thought amusing but am also interested greatly in what people think.

I read in a book a few years ago that some yogis worship the devil aswell as God because they believe that this may happen.

I'm agnostic.

I am not one of these people who scroll my eyes when religeous people namely jehovas witnesses knock on the door for i veiw it as an ideal opportunity for discussion, psychological observation and sociological understanding. I once asked a couple of ladies of that faith who knocked on my door my topic question and they said it just wouldnt happen...point blank.

Classic case of denial if you ask me, but i also accept and respect that they did not see or feel it this way, the devil apologising just wouldnt happen because...followed by some hyperthetical justification.

So, would it just NOT happen for your religion too? What is the reason for this?

WOULD the repentent devil BE forgiven?

Hyperthetically speaking in the world of Gods Angels and Devils and Paradises, what would happen to hell? would the fire turn baby blue with sweet smelling smoke?

What would happen to sin?

What would be Satans new point of office?

Where would all the "baddies" go?

Can anyone think of any other things that might be affected by this change?

i am interested in all perspectives here serious ones and silly ones too ha ha, it would be nice to write a story about what happens...a new testement or scripture of some sort perhaps...leave me any sort of related feedback or theory I LOVE IT!!! NICE ONE CHEERS!!! thumbup2.gif
Darthy
hysterical.gif Good question nn23.
I don't believe in God neither in Satan. For me the Universe always existed, never had a beginning.
If Satan (if He exists) apologised, like you say, He would put a monumental problem in the brains of the "establishment" philosophers (I can see the mess lmfao.gif).
If that happened there was no need to die, because there was no need of punishments for the "baddies" and rewards for the "gooddies". thumbup2.gif
It would be the real equality for the Humankind. thumbup.gif
Let's go and beg Him to apologise, but before we should beg Him to steal all the money in the World. hysterical.gif hysterical.gif
Isn't it a good idea? idea.gif
Regards,
Darthy
nn23
YEAH!!!! hysterical.gif clapping.gif clapping.gif
i absolutely LOVE your point about no need for punishment and reward!
And poor old, satan, discriminated against because he went down the wrong path.
This point does highlight that it could be a good idea to pray to satan to "find his way back" into Gods good books...that would lead to the question: "Why not pray to the devil (with that motive in mind)"???
Any answers??

NICE ONE DARTHY!!!! thumbup.gif
seafox14
The only unforgivable sin is Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. This includes having knowledge of God and what He is and still rejecting Him. Satan committed this in his pride when he tried to usurp God's place. Not only can Satan not be forgiven, but his pride will not let him repent. Revelation indicates that even after 1000 years in the lake of fire he will still try to overthrow God. So it's not just that Satan could not be forgiven, but also that his pride will not let him even consider repenting.

Seafox14
nn23
mmm thanks, its really cool to have your opinion thumbup.gif

I can't seem to fit this idea in with my experiences. I myself and many friends and family have suffered from pride on occasions which i have witnessed, and they have managed to sometimes get through it and see that they were being silly, why is it not eventually possible for this to happen to the devil?...or, why is it not possible for you to believe this to be possible?

I find what you were saying about those who have knowledge of God but still yet reject him being Blasphemas an interesting concept. thumbup2.gif

Does that make all people who declare themselves atheist or agnostic blasphemers?

What about people who havnt been christened? no, i spose they dont count cause not being christened isnt a rejection, i think?

I was christened does the fact that i dont have faith mean that i am a blasphema?

err and one more

Would it be sinful for you to actually explore the idea of how things might change if the devil did apologise, even if you don't believe it would happen?

WOW curiouser and curiouser he he NICE ONE seafox14 CHEERS!!!! clapping.gif thumbup.gif
Darthy
Hey nn, I think Satan and Beelzebub are the same entity, aren't they?
In this site, you will find a book, you can download, with the name "Revolution of Beelzebub".
In this book, written by Samael Aun Weor, which title is "The Avatar of the Aquarian Era", Beelzebub apologise for all his sins, because Samael convinced Him to do so. lmfao.gif
Isn't that beautiful?
If Beelzebub is the same entity that Satan, then He already apologised. hysterical.gif hysterical.gif
If you don't know if Satan and Beelzebub are the same entity, I think seafox14 can explain it to us. tongue.gif
Regards,
Darthy
seafox14
Darthy, You are right in saying that Satan and Beelzebub are the same. Lucifer has had many names over the millenia to trick people and to hide who he really is. Lucifer, or Satan was the most powerful angel in heaven. His power and authority were second only to God. However, He also thought that he could replace God. For his pride and attempted coup, he was cast out of heaven with the angels that followed him( about 1/3 of the angels). He used the same pride and jealousy to get Adam and Eve to turn their backs on God and break the one rule that God gave them. Humanity has been following that same example ever since. When you look at the root cause of any sin, it always boils down to pride or jealousy. I'm talking about pride that says " I'm just as good as God. Why should I let Him tell me what to do?". I'm talking about jealousy that says " I want the power that God has so I can do what I want to and not have to answer for it."

We are all creations of God. Created to have a relationship with Him and to worship Him, whether we want to admit it or not. Claiming to not believe in God does not change this fact.

Now nn23. As to your questions. No it is not Blasphemy to wonder what it would be like if Satan repented and were forgiven. I have wondered this very same question myself in the past. However it is merely an intellectual line of thinking that has no chance of happening. As for atheists and agnostics. Atheism is the belief that there is no God and is a total rejection of Him. If one became an Atheist but had never been shown the truth about God then repentance is still available provided that the atheist turned to God after Learning about God. As long as that happened before that person died. As for Agnostics. I have heard agnosticism described as believing that there is a higher power out there but not acknowledging any one particular faith. Let me make this clear. Choosing to stay neutral and not make a choice is just as bad as rejecting God. It is still choosing not to follow God which is rejecting Him by default. Again if the choice to be agnostic is made out of ignorance of God (i.e. never learned about Him) then their is the chance for repentance and forgiveness. As for Christening. That is a human tradition. There is no scriptural basis for it. it is basically the same as baptism, an outward show and expression of faith.

I also want to make one thing perfectly clear. By choosing to reject God you choose to send yourself to hell. By choosing to not make a choice between God or Satan you are still rejecting God and choosing to send yourself to hell. There is no middle ground. As harsh as this may be to hear. With God there are no shades of gray, there is only black and white. Choose Him or choose hell. The love that God shows us is in that He lets us make that choice for ourselves instead of giving us no choice at all. He loves us enough to risk us rejecting Him because He wants us to chose Him out of love, not because we were forced to.


Choose wisely.


Seafox14
jgweed
"Choose Him or choose hell. The love that God shows us is in that He lets us make that choice for ourselves instead of giving us no choice at all. He loves us enough to risk us rejecting Him because He wants us to chose Him out of love, not because we were forced to."

Well it does seem to me that God is loading the dice a little. If he wanted us to chose him out of love, then why does he threaten us with hell? That is not a REAL choice, God or Hell, now is it? If he really wanted, out of love for his creatures or just out of understanding, he would certainly have allowed us a truly FREE choice without being punished for making the wrong choice.
Regards,
John
Cheers,
John
seafox14
John, the choice has always been to either choose to follow and obey God, or to reject God an live however we want to and send ourselves to hell. This was the choice that God gave to Adam and Eve, and has not changed. Every choice has it's own consequences whether we want to face them or not. God has layed out what the choices are and what the consequences are. He then steps aside and lets us make the choice ourselves rather than say you have no choice but to follow me. Yes Rejecting God has eternal consequences if that rout is taken, but that option is there if one chooses to go there. If this is the path that you have chosen, then Enjoy Your time on this earth while you can, but know the consequences of that choice will be after this life ends and we go into eternity. I do pray that you and many on this site have not made the choice to reject God already knowing the consequences of that choice. If it was made out of ignorance of God, (i.e. not knowing about God and salvation through faith in Jesus), then there is still time to change you decision and come to Jesus. If your choice was made with full knowledge, then you have my sympathies. I know this will sound incredibly harsh to many here on this site, but the choice and the consequences remain the same and have not changed.


I urge anyone that has not permanently rejected God to examine your hearts and how you are living your life. Then compare it to God's standard. There is salvation and reconciliation with God through the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. Choose God.


Seafox14
seafox14
John I know that you have raised many questions about the validity of the different translations of the bible. here is some information I think you may find interesting.




MANUSCRIPT EVIDENCE FOR THE BIBLE
Talk About It

Is the Bible a credible history book? Weren't there a number of changes made to the Bible over the centuries? What about all those interpretations of the oral tradition?

When it comes to the biblical text, there's a common misunderstanding about interpretations and translations. Yes, the Bible has been translated from its original languages, but it has not been changed or interpreted along the way. Translations such as the King James Version are derived from existing copies of ancient manuscripts -- the Hebrew Masoretic Text (Old Testament) and the Greek Textus Receptus (New Testament).

Today's Bibles are not translations of texts translated from other interpretations - they go right back to the ancient source manuscripts. The primary differences between today's Bible translations and those from earlier periods are based more on the need to update the target language than on the fact that our ancient manuscripts are not reliable. For example when it says in the old King James Version that Caiaphas "rent" his clothes (Matthew 26:5), it does not mean that he let someone else use his clothes for money. In 16th Century English "rent" meant "to tear." A modern translation needs to update based on the change in word meanings in a living language.

Dramatically, when the Bible is compared to other writings, it stands alone as the best-preserved literary work of all antiquity. There are thousands of existing Old Testament manuscripts and fragments copied throughout the Middle East, Mediterranean and European regions that agree phenomenally with each other.1 In addition, these texts substantially agree with the Septuagint version of the Old Testament, which was translated from Hebrew to Greek during the 3rd Century BC.2 The Dead Sea Scrolls, discovered in Israel in the 1940's and 50's, also provide astounding evidence for the reliability of the ancient transmission of the Jewish Scriptures (Old Testament) in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Centuries BC.3

The manuscript evidence for the New Testament is also dramatic, with nearly 25,000 ancient manuscripts discovered and archived so far, at least 5,600 of which are copies and fragments in the original Greek.4 Some manuscript texts date to the early 2nd and 3rd Centuries, with the time between the original autographs and our earliest existing fragments being a remarkably short 40-60 years.5

Interestingly, this manuscript evidence far surpasses the manuscript reliability of other ancient writings that we trust as authentic every day. Look at these comparisons:

o Homer's Iliad (643 manuscripts remain, with the earliest one dating to 400 years after the original autograph);
o Julius Caesar's The Gallic Wars (10 manuscripts remain, with the earliest one dating to 1,000 years after the original autograph);
o Pliny Secundus' Natural History (7 manuscripts remain; with the earliest one dating to 750 years after the original autograph);
o Thucydides' History (8 manuscripts remain; with the earliest one dating to 1,300 years after the original autograph);
o Herodotus' History (8 manuscripts remain; with the earliest one dating to 1,350 years after the original autograph);
o Plato's essays (7 manuscripts remain; with the earliest one dating to 1,300 years after the original autograph);
o Tacitus' Annals (20 manuscripts remain; with the earliest one dating to 1,000 years after the original autograph).6

When it comes to credibility and accuracy, the huge number of biblical manuscripts is powerful. Like all other ancient documents, we don't have the original autographs. However, the sheer number of biblical manuscripts allows scholars to reconstruct the entire original with near complete accuracy!

In real terms, the New Testament is easily the best attested ancient writing in terms of the sheer number of documents, the time span between the events and the document, and the variety of documents available to sustain or contradict it. There is nothing in ancient manuscript evidence to match such textual availability and integrity.7

But if you don't read the text of the Bible for yourself, it doesn't make any difference to you how accurate it is!

1. Josh McDowell, The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict, Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1999, 71-73.
2. Josh McDowell, Evidence that Demands a Verdict, vol.1, Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1979, 58-59.
3. Ibid. 56-57.
4. McDowell, The New Evidence that Demands a Verdict, 34-36.
5. John Ryland's Gospel of John fragment, John Ryland's Library of Manchester, England. See also, Ibid., 38.
6. McDowell, Evidence that Demands a Verdict, vol.1, 42.
7. Ravi K. Zacharias, Can Man Live Without God? Word Publishing, 1994, 162.




TEXTUAL CRITICISM OF THE BIBLE
Talk About It

When examining the accuracy of the New Testament texts, scholars now have nearly 25,000 ancient manuscript copies and fragments to compare against each other. Almost 5,700 of these texts are written in the original Greek. When read together, we're now assured that nothing's been lost - the New Testament we read today is nearly identical to the New Testament texts being circulated by the end of the 1st Century AD. In fact, all of the New Testament except eleven minor verses can now be reconstructed outside the biblical manuscripts from the ancient writings of the early church leaders in the 2nd and 3rd Centuries AD.1

The academic discipline of "textual criticism" guarantees us that the Bible translations we have today are essentially the same as the ancient manuscripts, with the exception of a few inconsequential discrepancies that have been introduced over time through copyist error. We must remember that the Bible was hand-copied for hundreds of years before the invention of the first printing press in the mid-fifteenth century. Nevertheless, the text is exceedingly well preserved.

Homer's Iliad, the most renowned book of ancient Greece, is the second best-preserved literary work of all antiquity, with 643 copies of manuscript support discovered to date. In those copies, there are 764 disputed lines of text, as compared to 40 lines in all the New Testament manuscripts.2 Do you see how powerful this is? Of the approximately 20,000 lines that make up the entire New Testament, only 40 lines are in question! These 40 lines represent one quarter of one percent of the entire text and do not in any way affect the teaching and doctrine of the New Testament.

In comparison, of the approximately 15,600 lines that make up Homer's Iliad, 764 lines are in question. These 764 lines represent over 5% of the entire text, and yet nobody seems to question the general integrity of that ancient work.

Many ask, "Why don't we have surviving originals of the biblical texts?" Simply, there are no original manuscripts for any ancient works. In fact, many people are unaware that there are no surviving manuscripts of any of William Shakespeare's 37 plays (written in the 1600's), and scholars have been forced to fill some gaps in his works.3

The Bible is better preserved -- by far -- than other ancient works we read and accept as accurate every day, such as Homer, Plato and Aristotle. Through time-tested literary techniques, scholars have clearly determined that the Bible was not changed or interpreted from the ancient source texts. As the Bible was carried from country to country, it was translated into languages that don't necessarily mirror the original languages of Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic. However, other than some grammatical and cultural differences, the Bible is absolutely true to its original form and content, and remarkably well-preserved in its various translations.

Renowned Bible scholar F.F. Bruce declares:

There is no body of ancient literature in the world which enjoys such a wealth of good textual attestation as the New Testament.4

Of course if a text isn't read, it doesn't make any difference how accurate it is. Why not carve out some time in your daily schedule to read the Bible. You can even download it on your pocket PC so that you can read it anytime!

1. Josh McDowell, Evidence that Demands a Verdict, vol.1, Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1979, 50-51.
2. Norman L. Geisler and William E. Nix, A General Introduction to the Bible, Moody, Chicago, Revised and Expanded 1986, 366-67.
3. http://shakespeare.com/faq/, Dana Spradley, Publisher, 2002.
4. F.F. Bruce, The Books and the Parchments: How We Got Our English Bible, Fleming H. Revell Co., 1950, 178.


Seafox14
nn23
Seafox14 i think that it is absolutely LOVELY that you care so much about us all that you want to help bring us into the path of God. Your faith is so STRONG i find it quite admirable! smile.gif. I am really impressed that you have entered into this discussion for i am sure many other people probably worry it might result in a Believers vs non-believers situation, which i am not really aiming for wink.gif

It is funny to think that someone who is friendly, kind and altruistic through-out their life (no particular example in mind, theres plenty of us) could have such a fate waiting for them for not choosing the halo and wings, i'm sure i've heard of that idealism before in a different context?

In your first reply you said ....

(sorry i havnt properly sussed the quote option yet)
Now nn23. As to your questions. No it is not Blasphemy to wonder what it would be like if Satan repented and were forgiven. I have wondered this very same question myself in the past. However it is merely an intellectual line of thinking that has no chance of happening....

Although exploring your beliefs in our damnation to hell is a very interesting subject that i'd like to pick up later perhaps, it is this area that my topic encompasses and therefore i would like to bring it back to this.

What i found interesting in this response is you saying that it was something you had explored and then bridging to somewhere else with a denial of the possibility of Satans repentance with no description of how you came to this conclusion when you were wondering such a thing. But this however in the outline of my topic is exactly what i would like to hear about thumbup.gif . How was it that you came to this view in the end? I am interested in the journey of your wonderings more than where you came to at the end smile.gif .

Oh and Darthy THANKS MUCHLY for that link i am SOOOO going there to have a read and get some more views for this topic.

NICE ONE GUYS!!!! laugh.gif nn23
Darthy
QUOTE
...Yes Rejecting God has eternal consequences if that rout is taken, but that option is there if one chooses to go there...

May I ask you a question, seafox14?
How can a finite cause have an infinite consequence?
As you can easily understand, life is a finite gift and to sin is a finite cause inside a finite thing (life).
How can God, that is The Supreme Being and consequently The Supreme Judge, to punish with eternal (infinite) consequences the act of sinning, which always represents a finite cause?
Before I finish, I want to thank you for your last two posts.
Respectfully,
Darthy
seafox14
QUOTE(Darthy @ Mar 4 2007, 12:24 PM) *
QUOTE
...Yes Rejecting God has eternal consequences if that rout is taken, but that option is there if one chooses to go there...

May I ask you a question, seafox14?
How can a finite cause have an infinite consequence?
As you can easily understand, life is a finite gift and to sin is a finite cause inside a finite thing (life).
How can God, that is The Supreme Being and consequently The Supreme Judge, to punish with eternal (infinite) consequences the act of sinning, which always represents a finite cause?
Before I finish, I want to thank you for your last two posts.
Respectfully,
Darthy


Your welcome Darthy. To answer your question. humans ave two sides. The finite physical side, and the non finite soul. When our bodies die, our souls go to judgment by God (this includes Christians) to account for how we lived our lives. This is how finite choices made in this life can effect one's eternal destination. Even Christians have to give an accounting of how we handle our lives and how faithfully we have server God. This is summed up in the parable of the ten talents that Jesus told (In the book of Matthew). That is why I so earnestly urge caution when making the decision to choose God or to reject Him. This more than anything is the most important choice a person makes in their life and will effect everything that happens afterward.

Choose wisely.
Seafox14
nn23
So? What would happen if Satan Apologised?



QUOTE(nn23 @ Mar 4 2007, 01:13 PM) *
Seafox14 i think that it is absolutely LOVELY that you care so much about us all that you want to help bring us into the path of God. Your faith is so STRONG i find it quite admirable! smile.gif. I am really impressed that you have entered into this discussion for i am sure many other people probably worry it might result in a Believers vs non-believers situation, which i am not really aiming for wink.gif

It is funny to think that someone who is friendly, kind and altruistic through-out their life (no particular example in mind, theres plenty of us) could have such a fate waiting for them for not choosing the halo and wings, i'm sure i've heard of that idealism before in a different context?

In your first reply you said ....

(sorry i havnt properly sussed the quote option yet)
Now nn23. As to your questions. No it is not Blasphemy to wonder what it would be like if Satan repented and were forgiven. I have wondered this very same question myself in the past. However it is merely an intellectual line of thinking that has no chance of happening....

Although exploring your beliefs in our damnation to hell is a very interesting subject that i'd like to pick up later perhaps, it is this area that my topic encompasses and therefore i would like to bring it back to this.

What i found interesting in this response is you saying that it was something you had explored and then bridging to somewhere else with a denial of the possibility of Satans repentance with no description of how you came to this conclusion when you were wondering such a thing. But this however in the outline of my topic is exactly what i would like to hear about thumbup.gif . How was it that you came to this view in the end? I am interested in the journey of your wonderings more than where you came to at the end smile.gif .

Oh and Darthy THANKS MUCHLY for that link i am SOOOO going there to have a read and get some more views for this topic.

NICE ONE GUYS!!!! laugh.gif nn23


Back to the topic maybe? wink.gif thumbup2.gif nn23

or actually, dont worry its cool, i wanna see where this goes laugh.gif thumbup.gif
Darthy
Like nn23 said, "Your faith is so STRONG i find it quite admirable! smile.gif", and I say that I respect you very much, but you don't answer my question, that is:
How can a finite cause (to make a sin) to have an infinite consequence (the damnation)?
Backing to the topic, I have to say what I said in my post #6 nn23:
QUOTE(Darthy)
If Beelzebub is the same entity that Satan, then He already apologised. hysterical.gif hysterical.gif
If you don't know if Satan and Beelzebub are the same entity, I think seafox14 can explain it to us. lmfao.gif

And Seafox14, already told us that Satan and Beelzebub are the same Entity, so, I think nothing happened until now, but it can still happen, who knows?
lmfao.gif lmfao.gif
Regards,
Darthy
nn23
mmm Yeah, i TOTALLY see that smile.gif . i would be really pleased to here more description of the line of thought Seafox14 went down that brought him to his decisions when wondering what would happen if the devil did apologise thouugh. I am interested in what happened imbetween that question, and the really quite simple and inexplicative answer that it "just has no chance of happening"...why? huh.gif thumbup2.gif

And anything from anyone else who follows any other religions. The point of this topic is not just about resolution, i am simply interested in the reasons and justifications that we use for our views.

NICE ONE Darthy thumbup.gif laugh.gif nn23
Darthy
I understand your point of view nn.
I'm going to wait and see what happens.
Regards,
Darthy
nn23
he he he he Yeah laugh.gif thumbup2.gif

NICE ONE!!! laugh.gif nn23
seafox14
Actually Darthy, I did answer your question. to put it another way. God's standard is perfection. this means that even one sin (which does effect the soul) is enough to keep a person out of heaven, no matter how small that sin may seem to us. No one ever born has been able to live without sin, except Jesus. This is because his father was God not a human male. His willingly sacrifice on the cross for us fulfilled old testament prophesies about the coming Messiah that would save people from their sins. so to answer your question again. The physical body is just a vessel that houses the soul and allows us to interact with the physical world. The soul contains everything that we are and continues on after the body dies. This is how sin in this life effects the soul. As I stated in a previous post there is only one sin that is unforgivable. That sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Most theologians consider this rejecting God even after being told the truth about Him. that is the only sin that Jesus ever said was unfogivable

Now nn23, as you asked, Back to the topic. Realistically, it will never happen. Satan wants to take God's place. He does not want reconciliation. Theoretically, if Satan apologized, there would be less sin in the world and the world would get a little better. Hell would still exist because of the other angels that followed Satan and have not repented and because mankind has a very sinful nature thanks to Adam and Eve.


Seafox14
Platypus
I think seafox's comment "Satan wants to take God's place" defines how things stand.

Those folk (myself included) who accept the Bible as the declaration of God's truth see Satan defined as the ultimate liar and deceiver. God knows this fully and has foreseen that destruction will be all that will ever prevent Satan from attempting to usurp God's position. Any apology or "repentance" could only ever be a misrepresentation as part of the continuing intention to usurp, which God will never allow to come to pass.

That said, anyone interested in the theological concept of Satan being restored can Google search for "Ultimate Reconciliation".
Darthy
I think Satan can repent himself and make peace with God. thumbup2.gif
Imagine He doesn't want to stay anymore in Hell and goes to the presence of God and God sees that Satan is truly repented!!!
What happens then? I think the other fallen angels would follow Satan and Hell would cease its existence.
It would be a marvelous thing for all the Humankind, don't you agree? smile.gif
Regards,
Darthy
mz30
The only unforgivable sin is Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. This includes having knowledge of God and what He is and still rejecting Him. Satan committed this in his pride when he tried to usurp God's place. Not only can Satan not be forgiven, but his pride will not let him repent. Revelation indicates that even after 1000 years in the lake of fire he will still try to overthrow God. So it's not just that Satan could not be forgiven, but also that his pride will not let him even consider repenting



sorry to jump in .as i 've just read through this topic this jumped out at me, if i live my life the way i see fit but believe theres a god do i go to hell or am i wrong in thinking god gave us free will. as a catholic (not practicing) i always believed god was all forgiving .

i mean am no angel but i don't think that if the almighty was looking down on me he'd cast me into the pits of hell because i'm not living my life like the bible says i should.

it always amazed me religious chat am i not right in thinking more people have been killed in the name of religion than in any war the people who kill in the name of their god are they not as bad as satan?.
do they go to heaven or hell?

i know what i'm saying is a little controversial but anytime religion's mentioned there always is.

back to your original question satan apologizes god forgives him and everything is hunky-dory tongue.gif
nn23
I LOVE the way you made your point mz30 BRILLIANT and i personally quite agree, there apears to be some sort of contradiction in the terms of Gods "rules".

I often wonder what God would say about the amount of women, people with mental health difficulties and people with learning difficulties who have been killed, TORTURED even, in his name through the ignorance of man and their faith.

I too was christened catholic btw, but i was not given the choice and do not practice, i might be Blasphemous but i wont pretend i am something that i am not.

As Kurt Cobain said....I'd rather be hated for who i am, than loved for who i am not smile.gif

NICE ONE!!! nn23 thumbup.gif
mz30
smile.gif just stumbled back to this topic if satan apoligised what diffrent would it make would it make a diffrence would there still be murderers ,rapists ,child molesters(capital punishment to good for them)or mass murderers if god is almighty and watches all of us then these things happen regardless and if satan pologises they will continue too so what i say is man (woman)can be evil and the sooner we start accepting mankinds flaws and stop blaming everything on a higher power the better we will be as human beings.

people say god gave us free will ,i say people gave us god and if i am wrong then to the pits of hell iwill go
but i will apologise now if there is an almighty that way i will be forgiven and go to heaven,s i don't like hot places tongue.gif
ghostwriter
I was just thinking NN23 that if Satan apologised and everything was good....What would film makers make movies of and novelists write about??
The majority of our movies and books are all about good versus evil??

And would that then make the Bible redundant??
nn23
HA HAAAA thats a bit of a mad one, life would be quite boring without the conflicts between the socially constructed doctrine of good and evil. I was also considering today what would happen to the severn deadly sins? Would they still be sins, or would they form some sort of union with the commandments?
ghostwriter
I don't think that they would form a union with the commandments....I just think they would be seven ways to get you in big doo doo.

As I was writing this reply I just had another thought........If Satan did apologise and he was forgiven, would it then send a ripple over time and change the world? What I mean is would it go all the way back to Adam and Eve and that very naughty apple and change everything from there on??

Sorry if my religious history is not correct not much into religion.

And if it did what sort of a world would we be living right now??? How much of our music, art, science, poetry, philosophy, fears, myths and religion would be the same or changed or not created??????

Yikes!!!
nn23
HA HAAAA thats very interesting smile.gif

Perhaps a christian argument would be that the love of heaven would be on earth and would be far superior to any poetry, writings or art.

We'd all be walking around naked if that happened too...maaaaaad w00t.gif

but yes, interesting, does that mean that God effects the weather systems too or just our ability to feel it, cause walking around naked would be COLD....Does this contradict christian science?
ghostwriter
"
QUOTE
Perhaps a christian argument would be that the love of heaven would be on earth and would be far superior to any poetry, writings or art."


Well that would be true because there would be no evil and since there would be no evil to weigh up the good with. So if that was the case would we have any morals? With no evil in the world would we know, heartbreak, loss, anger jealousy, and if not, would we then be lesser than what god created us? Never reaching our potential? Never being able to prove our love and faith to him?
What lessons would we have to learn on this Earth? With no evil how would we be able to think? There would be nothing to weigh up the consequences against?
Would we ever progress from Adam and Eve?


QUOTE
"We'd all be walking around naked if that happened too...maaaaaad "


Well...that's not all together true....Adam and Eve did walk around with fig leaves!!! wink.gif

QUOTE
but yes, interesting, does that mean that God effects the weather systems too or just our ability to feel it, cause walking around naked would be COLD....Does this contradict christian science?


Well, I would say Yes, If everyone was doing what they should be doing there would be no reason for God to express his wrath over his people. So I suppose everyday would be a beautiful sunny day.
kboaz2001
I have just had a chance to get back to bleeping computers and have stumbled onto this forum. I find this an interesting question, and I will state up front that I, along with seafox, am a Christian. I firmly believe that there is a choice that each of us have to make weather to believe in God or not. It is not about a religion, but about a relationship with Christ. I will say beyond a shadow of a doubt that I am not perfect, but I am forgiven by the blood of Christ. After all, that is why we celebrate Easter.

Hypothethically speaking, Satan could possibly could apologize to God, but according to the scriptures, Satan will fight God to the very end. Just read through the book of Revelation and you will see this.

I also agree with seafox, that each of you would realize the simple fact of Christ's gift to us, the gift of salvation and eternal life with Him. Each of us has a soul that will live eternally, but it is our choice where we spend eternity, Heaven or Hell.

I also want to add that I enjoy these types of discussions, I learn so much from all of you.
scarnge
The answer to your question is that forgiveness is not available for fallen angels according to the Bible. They made their choice already. God's forgiveness is only available to mankind, and humans, like the angels, have the free will to make a choice. Satan's fall came when his pride made him want to be God. This is not unlike humans who want to be god of their lives.

One phrase that is being thrown around is "apologizing to God." According to the Bible, saying you are sorry is not what God requires for salvation. God has already forgiven your sins, the only action needed to be right with God is to accept His forgiveness by belief in Him. Belief comes through realizing we all are sinners and fall short of God's standards. That Jesus Christ, God's Son and gift to us, took the sins of the world upon Him and sacrificed Himself so we may be forgiven of our transgressions. True belief brings change in the way you perceive the world because the Holy Spirit becomes your internal guide. Though you will still sin, you have the power to no longer be a slave to the sinful things you used to enjoy and often will have guilt from it. Believers must often ask for God's forgiveness because of the constant struggle of human's sin nature and what He wants for you(which is really your best interests).

Hope this helps you understand the Chritian philosophy and I will gladly entertain anymore questions on this subject.
scarnge
Another common question is "what happens to children or those who are mentally handicapped? Will the go to hell because the did not make a choice?"
The answer to this is that each person has an age of accountability. This means if you live to be a certain age, you come to a realization of what is right or wrong. Some people never reach this age and do not have the knowledge of good and evil, and will not be held responsible for their sins.
The original sin was not adultery, murder, sexual deviants, or the host of others commonly cited. It was Adam and Eve disobeying God's one rule: eating of the tree of good and evil. Eve was deceived by Satan. He convinced her that she would not surely die if she tasted the fruit, but that it would make her like God. So, when Eve gave the fruit to Adam and he bit into it, his eyes were suddenly opened to what was good and evil. At that point the age of innocence went out the window and Adam became accountable for his sins,
the first being disobeying God's one rule.

Touche.
scarnge
Universal questions are easy, but these bleeping computers are a real mystery.
nn23
QUOTE(scarnge @ Apr 3 2007, 08:20 PM) *
Another common question is "what happens to children or those who are mentally handicapped? Will the go to hell because the did not make a choice?"
The answer to this is that each person has an age of accountability. This means if you live to be a certain age, you come to a realization of what is right or wrong. Some people never reach this age and do not have the knowledge of good and evil, and will not be held responsible for their sins.
The original sin was not adultery, murder, sexual deviants, or the host of others commonly cited. It was Adam and Eve disobeying God's one rule: eating of the tree of good and evil. Eve was deceived by Satan. He convinced her that she would not surely die if she tasted the fruit, but that it would make her like God. So, when Eve gave the fruit to Adam and he bit into it, his eyes were suddenly opened to what was good and evil. At that point the age of innocence went out the window and Adam became accountable for his sins,
the first being disobeying God's one rule.

Touche.

huh? your gona have to make your point clearer about what it is you are saying about "mentally handicapped" i am unable to visualise the context of your reference.

I reserve judgment, but for others sake could you make your point clearer.

Why would people ask "what happens to children or those who are mentally handicapped?"? I have never even considered this question and i do not understand your point with reference to people with learning difficulties at all!
nn23
QUOTE(kboaz2001 @ Apr 3 2007, 05:27 AM) *
Hypothethically speaking, Satan could possibly could apologize to God, but according to the scriptures, Satan will fight God to the very end. Just read through the book of Revelation and you will see this.
mmm, well something i have noticed is that people answer this question with reasons as to why it wont happen...what would happen if Satan apologised? Satan will fight God to the end....that hardly answers the question, but it can imply a-lot about the depths with which a person thinks.

In reply to a similer answer i asked:
QUOTE(nn23 @ Mar 4 2007, 10:09 PM) *
I am interested in what happened imbetween that question, and the really quite simple and inexplicative answer that it "just has no chance of happening"...why? huh.gif thumbup2.gif

And anything from anyone else who follows any other religions. The point of this topic is not just about resolution, i am simply interested in the reasons and justifications that we use for our views.



QUOTE(scarnge @ Apr 3 2007, 07:58 PM) *
The answer to your question is that forgiveness is not available for fallen angels according to the Bible.
Is this not a little discriminitive?
QUOTE(scarnge @ Apr 3 2007, 07:58 PM) *
They made their choice already. God's forgiveness is only available to mankind, and humans, like the angels, have the free will to make a choice. Satan's fall came when his pride made him want to be God. This is not unlike humans who want to be god of their lives.

Like the other answer, there is the same issue, i am not asking if Satan would apologise. I am asking what you think would happen if he did. smile.gif

"But if you do not forgive men, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions." Matthew 6:15.

Yes, perhaps forgiveness is only available to mankind, but again, does this not prove to be a little discriminitive?

Discrimination is what lies benieth prejudice in the world today, who knows, perhaps this "original discrimination" is the root of all the evils that come with discriminations that people use to justify their actions today blink.gif

Perhaps God was setting a bit of a bad example by only making forgiveness available to man?

QUOTE(scarnge @ Apr 3 2007, 07:58 PM) *
One phrase that is being thrown around is "apologizing to God." According to the Bible, saying you are sorry is not what God requires for salvation.
God has already forgiven your sins, the only action needed to be right with God is to accept His forgiveness by belief in Him. Belief comes through realizing we all are sinners and fall short of God's standards.
mmm, and what would happen if Satan did this?

NICE ONE for the incite guys thumbup.gif
nn23
blueandgold04
nn23, isn't it discriminative that my dog doesn't have opposable thumbs? blink.gif

I'm not poking fun, I am just pointing out that different creatures have different things going for them. Angels have no free will, in that they cannot make a choice and be forgiven down the road. God created them to serve him, if they refuse, they are discarded. If I owned a dog/cat that attacked me viciously and bit me, I would kill it. They will never reform, just as the fallen angels lack the same capacity.

Thus, in the same vein, Satan will never reform, he lacks the capacity.

Humans have free will, we can be shown our errors and choose to reform if so inclined.

However, I respect you and your question. smile.gif

If Satan were somehow willing to give up his drive and ambition for glory, and submit himself to the will of God, he would apologize. This would still leave the 1/3 of all Watcher Angels who followed Satan (Demons) to bring evil on the world.

If said Demons repented, then those that push evil onto the world would cease. But man would still be imperfect, and continue to sin. Satan did not make people evil, God allowed people to be evil if they chose. Satan was not the Quince (Apple) of Knowledge, he only persuaded man to imbibe. Thus man knew the difference between good and evil. So good and evil exist without Satan. crazy.gif

So....some of the prophecies would change, but humans would still have to choose to follow God. Those who choose not to obey God will die, just as they always would (IMO eternal torture is a myth, there is only eternal death or eternal life). Thus, God's grand design would not change at all, because we would still have the opportunity to be with Him, which is what He wants anyway; Eternal Love and Companionship.

Respectfully,
bg04
starfirefive
nn23

I think you are correct, there is obviously discrimination if forgiveness is only available to mankind. Angels can hardly be compared to dogs after all. To answer your question, maybe Satan already apologized and was turned away. In that case, we already have the answer to your question, nothing would happen.
But even if he was forgiven, no worries. I'm sure there would be someone (thing?) to take his place.
nn23
Yes, to describe my understanding, where there are the dualities of thought and judgment there also lies good and evil.
blueandgold04
nn23, are 'thought' and 'judgement' on similar planes of duality of 'good' and 'evil'? I would say not. Good and evil, by definition are the antithesis to one another; whereas thought and judgement are no juxtaposed against one another. I would say a majority of thoughts include judgement.

You seem to be implying that judgement is evil?


starfirefive, I was not comparing the beings, but rather attempting to show that all creatures have certain capacities. As we have not created them, we are in no position to declare what beings deserve what capacities.

How can it be discriminitive if we are the only creatures aware of the pursuit of forgiveness from God? I have yet to hear from an Angel how unfair this is. Humans are the only beings I have come into contact with who actively seek salvation.
jwinathome
I was not able to read through the entire thread, but as far as people being genuine about forgiveness and mentally handicapped people and people unable to make decisions and such, I say this as an answer....

God is SO merciful and faithful. Do not underestimate the grace of God. He gave salvation as a gift, unmerited, He gave it freely...

The Bible says mercy TRIUMPHS over judgment. That is good news.
nn23
QUOTE(blueandgold04 @ May 9 2007, 12:39 PM) *
nn23, are 'thought' and 'judgement' on similar planes of duality of 'good' and 'evil'? I would say not. Good and evil, by definition are the antithesis to one another; whereas thought and judgement are no juxtaposed against one another. I would say a majority of thoughts include judgement.

You seem to be implying that judgement is evil?

The duality of our thoughts create judgment.

Good and evil can only come into being when there is a percieved duality for them to exist within.

Who is it that makes this perception?...does the "i" have a duality?

Thinking that i imply that judgment is evil is merely a dualism of thought.
blueandgold04
What is this duality?

I would think that there are a number of factors involved in making a judgement. Duality = Things Are vs. Things Aren't. Beyond that I think 'dualism' fails to accomodate the range of processes necessary for the creation of a judgement. And I think, on the whole, judgements are beneficial to success as a Human Being.

So good and evil are only a perception? There are no established good practices and none of the same for evil?
nn23
QUOTE(blueandgold04 @ May 9 2007, 04:15 PM) *
What is this duality?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dualism

QUOTE(blueandgold04 @ May 9 2007, 04:15 PM) *
I would think that there are a number of factors involved in making a judgement. Duality = Things Are vs. Things Aren't. Beyond that I think 'dualism' fails to accomodate the range of processes necessary for the creation of a judgement. And I think, on the whole, judgements are beneficial to success as a Human Being.

Yes you are correct, there are a number of facters involved, but these facters all require the division between the subject and the object....duality.

QUOTE(blueandgold04 @ May 9 2007, 04:15 PM) *
So good and evil are only a perception?

yes

QUOTE(blueandgold04 @ May 9 2007, 04:15 PM) *
There are no established good practices and none of the same for evil?

Oh there are plenty of established good and evil practices, but they are concepts created by the dualistic nature of our perception.
bilko
As neither God or Satan exist I'm supprised by the amount of posts this topic has had.
JohnWho
QUOTE(bilko @ May 17 2007, 01:06 PM) *
As neither God or Satan exist I'm supprised by the amount of posts this topic has had.


God knows, you may be right.



The devil, you say!

crazy.gif
blueandgold04
QUOTE(bilko @ May 17 2007, 12:06 PM) *
As neither God or Satan exist I'm supprised by the amount of posts this topic has had.


lmfao.gif hysterical.gif That was a truly original post to this thread! While I disagree, I do find it...inspiring.

Cheers,
bg04
JohnWho
Wait a minute -

do we really know that Satan doesn't exist?

What proof do we have?

Is this one of Satan's tricks to make us think that it doesn't exist?



C'mon - of course Satan exists.

Why else would there be specific food -

you know,

Devil's food cake?

wacko.gif
bilko
Maybe off Topic.

God is perfection!!!! Fact for those that believe in the fairy tale.

So why would she create imperfection, because it was a mistake, therfore God made a mistake and is not perfection.

Appart from the religious nonsense talk I feel that the original question was light hearted, so my response is:

God = Good
Devil = Bad

Therefore devil says sorry, god gives devil big hugs and says no problem, they go off together and have a few beers about the good old days.

Then the world would become so boring and dull with nobody commiting any bad deeds as the devil would no longer be tempting people to sin.

Even though I am a non-believer, there must be some sort of malign evil force out there. how else can chocolate be explained.
jwinathome
QUOTE(bilko @ May 17 2007, 01:45 PM) *
Maybe off Topic.

God is perfection!!!! Fact for those that believe in the fairy tale.

So why would she create imperfection, because it was a mistake, therfore God made a mistake and is not perfection.

Appart from the religious nonsense talk I feel that the original question was light hearted, so my response is:

God = Good
Devil = Bad

Therefore devil says sorry, god gives devil big hugs and says no problem, they go off together and have a few beers about the good old days.

Then the world would become so boring and dull with nobody commiting any bad deeds as the devil would no longer be tempting people to sin.

Even though I am a non-believer, there must be some sort of malign evil force out there. how else can chocolate be explained.


There is a lot going on in your head at all times isnt there?

What imperfections in creation do you see?
bilko
God (if she exists) must have created the Devil.

The Devil defied the will of God so to me this is imperfection.

Also all sin deifes the will of God, so again imperfection.

Deformities in people, illness, natural disasters, all imperfections.

This is my take, and all the religious frutcakes will prattle on and take selected quotes from the grand story book to prove that these imperfections are not mistakes by God, but part of her grand plan.

QUOTE
There is a lot going on in your head at all times isnt there?


Most of the time not a great deal. crazy.gif
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