The head Islamic Cleric in Australia only three weeks ago stated that Muslims have MORE right to our country than the original white settlers,and now another Muslim Cleric is Inciting Racial Hatred.As Iv'e stated in a previous post,I have a Muslim family living opposite me, and could not wish for better neighbours.
What is it going to take to educate these Muslim Clerics that this type of behavior is not welcomed in our country.Heres the Link.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,21074839-2,00.html

Eventhough I am very open minded and try to stay away from being bias this is really the max We had similar situations in our country which resulted in protests. As we speak Imams are leaving our country since they are much more under scrutiny since a certain date(9/11). Similar actions have lead to imprisonment for 2 imams overhere

Holland seems to have developed a most unusual entrance exam for applicants hoping to immigrate to their country (Germany apparently has something similar). Rather than just the usual criteria, they have included a video film showing "two men kissing in a park and a woman in a topless swimsuit". Apparently this part of the entrance test is designed to determine if applicants are open to the socially liberal views of their country.

While many seem to not like it, nor think it "fair", in reality a country does not have to let anyone immigrant.

For myself, I think it's fine that a Country sets it's own criteria for new citizens but do wish ALL applicants had to take this exact test, not just "applicants from Muslim countries". And I agree, DSTM, it's often the religious leaders (of all faiths) that cause such furor and social unrest, leaving all the innocents of the same faith 'tarred with the same brush'.

http://www.lifesite.net/ldn/2006/mar/06031305.html

Sorry about this 'double-post' but can't get my previous one to 'edit'

Hand in hand with 'tolerance' seems to go 'intolerance', but I hope no one minds my adding my bit here ...

______________________________

(Quote) In spite of UN declarations on religious freedom, there is still massive room for improvement in some countries. Religious intolerance is a driving force behind many of the world's armed conflicts and centers of civil unrest. A few current and recent conflicts are listed below:

Protestants vs. Roman Catholics in Northern Ireland
Muslims, vs. Serbian Orthodox Christians in Kosovo
Christians, Jews, and Muslims in the Middle East
Aboriginals, Hindus, Muslims, and Sikhs in India
Christians and Muslims in East Timor
Christians and Muslims and Animists in Nigeria
Christians and Muslims in the southern Philippine islands
Hindus and Buddhists in Sri Lanka
Christians and Muslims in Sudan (Unquote)

(Source: http://www.religioustolerance.org/relintol3.htm)
__________________________

And yet, tolerance of others in so many areas is actually taught within the New Testament itself, surely? The below is just a couple examples of what I'm referring to.
__________________________

(Quoted from souce: http://www.religioustolerance.org/tol_bibl.htm)

Tolerance of other types of "Christianity": Jesus' disciples had rejected a healer who was exorcising demons in Jesus' name, yet was not one of Jesus direct followers. Jesus criticized his disciples and accepted the healer. Mark and Luke report the incident in parallel passages:
Mark 9:38-40 "...we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbade him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part." (KJV)
Luke 9:49-50 "...we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbade him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us."


Acceptance of non-Christians into Heaven: A common and often preached message in the Christian Scriptures is that trusting in Jesus is the only way to be saved, and that only those persons who hear the Gospel and accept it will attain Heaven.
However Romans 2:14-16 delivers a different and contrasting message. Paul writes: "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel." Paul is here discussing those individuals who have not heard of the Mosaic law. Their lives will be reviewed on Judgment Day; they may be saved and attain heaven if they performed sufficient good works while alive on Earth. (Unquote).
______________________________

At the risk of being 'thumped mightily' for saying this, often I feel since it seems impossible for different faiths to simply accept one another and rejoice in their differences yet common bond, perhaps the world would be a better place should no religion at all exist.

With respect,
Mara

The ONLY way to heaven is to ask Jesus Christ to forgive you of your sins and that you believe in him.

Why do ones believe that if it's clearly written:

Repeat quote:

"Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."

Paul is here discussing those individuals who have not heard of the Mosaic law. Their lives will be reviewed on Judgment Day; they may be saved and attain heaven if they performed sufficient good works while alive on Earth. (Unquote)

My understanding of this is that, even if I don't believe in Christianity and I should be wrong about there not being a God, as long as I've been a good human being and truly cared for others and caused no harm, God would review my life and permit me to "attain heaven".

If there wasn't so so so much judgement of one another based on religion, surely life would be a much nicer place?

You are close, most scriptural doctrine dictates that works are a sign of salvation but not a means to it. IE if you are saved you will show it by the fruit of your works, works follows as evidence of salvation.

The way I interpret the Romans passage above is that God knows the hearts of all men and will judge them accordingly, including those outside of the known Christian church. Some will take this as in conflict with the gospel verse, "no man comes unto the Father but by me." I look at it this way: Jesus was the appropriation for mankind's salvation. In God's eyes, sin must be punished, and Jesus was the bearer of punishment to save mankind. But I don't think appropriation is necessarily the same as representation, that is to say I don't think everyone has to have heard Jesus' name in order to be covered under salvation. The alternative to this being that any person who has not heard the gospel goes to hell regardless of the condition of their heart.

Romans supports this view further in its chapters when it goes into the subject of predestination, where Paul clearly states that God chooses whomever he will to be saved or not be saved. So while Christians are called to preach the gospel, and while individuals are expected to appeal to it to be saved, it is ultimately God's will that is the determining factor in salvation.

Where do you suppose deep-seeded intolerance in religion comes from?

Religion has been used for political ends since there has been religion; perhaps part of the reason so many religions claim to be "mutually exclusive" is that regardless of what the originators of the religion were trying to create, over the years governments and churches have "tuned" religion into a method of social control. It's an easy way to sway the public into submission, and to raise hatred against other countries in times of war or when it’s otherwise convenient to do so.

Think about it. Take Christianity, in a broad "generic" sort of way. The religion openly states that Jesus is the only way into heaven. Good, so no one can have anything but the state religion. Christianity claims that there's no escape from judgment...so you can't just pop off and try on a different way of life for size. You can't even escape by taking your own life. So the fear of damnation will keep society "in line." What about inquisitive individuals who'd like to see the “rules” themselves…the "fine print?" Well, for many centuries in Europe only the church possessed the bible, nay, even the ability to read. "We have the rules, we interpret them for you, you follow them. Trust us on this one."

Western civilization is patriarchal. So naturally Christianity was and still is used to maintain that social structure. Is it a coincidence that church authorities are predominantly male? I have heard some preachers actually underscore the “fact” that g(G)od choose men to teach the bible, not women. Again, we have the case of: "we've got the book ladies, believe us, that's what it says. Trust us, g(G)od said so."

How did Jesus' statement, "love thine enemy," get interpreted as "you will crusade for the Holy Land, conquer it, and kill every ‘infidel’ in your path?" How did g(G)od manage to be support both the US and Iraq at the same time in Desert Storm 1 and 2 (ie, 1990 and 2003)? Oh wait...in both cases, each respective political leader was simply manipulating the public via their religious beliefs. In other words, it still happens today all over the globe.

Come on....g(G)od wants his kids blowing each other up? Ask yourself, WWJB: Who would Jesus bomb?*

Anyway, history is full of instances where an individual or nation seemingly goes against the deepest meanings of their faiths...usually the contradiction comes from political manipulation. The alterations to religion due to this manipulation is, I think, at least a good portion of the source of intolerance.







*Not mine, though I wish it was, it's a good'n. I saw it on a very clever bumper sticker.

Nobody is good. The Bible says all have fallen short of the Glory of God.
Good works DO NOT get you to Heaven. Asking Jesus to forgive you of your sins and believing in him is what it takes to get to heaven.

The point is Mara you HAVE HEARD the gospel and you reject it because you dont believe in God. I have a few links for you to read.

http://www.carm.org/email/skep_neverheard.htm

http://net-burst.net/hot/heathen.htm

EDIT
One more
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aiia/godfair.html

Is that the only way? How do muslims get to heaven? or Hindus or Jews?

Is heaven full of Christians? Where are the souls of the billions of people who lived and died before Christ was born?

Where is Ghandi's soul?

Just wondering.

I read the post by arcman with interest. It was clear and logical. He clearly has a very deep understanding of Christian theology.

My problem with any of this is that all discussion on comparative religion is based on various beliefs (and yes, I have my own beliefs). For example Christians use the bible to support their beliefs and equally Muslims use the Koran to support their own beliefs. Each side can make a compelling case to support their own position, as long as you accept their basic premis that their Book is true.

Ultimately, the discussion is hopeless as both sides take as a given that THEIR book is correct. There is no way to prove which if any are correct. There is no way to PROVE that God even exists. It always comes down to what YOU believe.

So when I read these debates which use the Bible or the Koran or the Talmud to demonstrate "God's Word" and to support a persons political or social or moral point of view, I despair at the hopelesness of the task.

sometimes i think that thats the problem with christianity and why so many people reject it. . . everyone isn't comfortable with the idea that no matter how good a person you are you can still go to hell. i'm not. i refuse to accept that idea, but i still believe in god. i'm a member of my state's methodist youth council and its been really rewarding. its comforting to know that there are other kids out there who feel the same way as i do, and who feel that christianity shouldn't be and isn't some horrible "love me or rot in hell" type scenario, you know? i used to be a little scared of religion because of the ways that so many "christians" act and what kind of horrible things were done in God's name, but its seriously a blessing to be able to be around people who have open minds and open hearts.

Yes, I too read Arcman's post and applaud his generous heart! And for Arcman and Constantine and locally pwned and Ambellina's understanding and tolerance for other's beliefs - all of you truly do renew my faith in mankind - gentle hugs!

I suspect many believe just as Arcman stated re the New Testament,

(Quote) Paul clearly states that God chooses whomever he will to be saved or not be saved. So while Christians are called to preach the gospel, and while individuals are expected to appeal to it to be saved, it is ultimately God's will that is the determining factor in salvation. (Unquote).

I know you mean well, truly I do, CGM, but reading all the links in the world isn't going to change my mind, truly it won't - especially the one about "heathens" - gentle smile. I came to my decision after struggling mightily for a long time, but that is not to say I am correct. Rather, I could be wrong and there could be a God. And I've said it before but I mean this so deeply, if I am wrong, surely God will have a sense of humour and understand I've truly done the very best I could.

And if a God exists who cannot see this, rather is a God who thinks I should go straight to Hell, well, I was then right to not Praise a God who shows no understanding, compassion, tolerance of others or mercy. (I hope this sentence doesn't not offend anyone, truly I do, as it's only my belief and not intended to hurt anyone's feelings).

I have friends that are United, Pentacostal, Methodist and Catholic and atheists, agnostics, Christian Scientist and Wigans, too - and perhaps strangely to some, we can all sit around my diningroom table having the most wonderful of conversations all about the various religions and a zillion other things - and not once have we tried to reform each other or not shown humour and understanding about our individual faiths or lack of.

Each person finds peace within themselves in their own way - and with peace perhaps comes greater understanding.

Well mara as I said before we all have a choice to believe what we want whether it be right or wrong.

I am not debating any more. I encourage you all to read the Bible. I dont have all the answers.



Jesus said all you have to do is just believe in him and ask for his forgiveness to go to heaven. You dont have to have PROOF. It says in the Bible anyone who rejects God goes to hell. God does not send people to hell they refuse to accept him. They send themselves.

http://www.gotquestions.org/God-create-doomed-people.html

http://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-hell-fair.html

I hope one day before its to late you turn to him.
-Austin Z

i mean no disrespect, but i believe that attitudes like that are what turn so many people away from christianity in the first place. some people arent, and never will be, comfortable with associating themselves with people who think that those who do not follow their same faith are automatically going to hell. then, christianity doesn't become something that grants you eternal life so much as something that saves you from supposedly rotting in hell, and those are two very different things. . . i don't understand why so many christians don't realize this. i agree with MaraM in that you can post links until your blue in your computer screen but it takes more than a google search to mean something. . .

You ask questions and then you deny the answers from the links? Its like asking for computer help and then when someone points to a site that had the answer in good detail already(so they dont have to write it all over again) you just deny it and say "thats not good enough".

I know you dont believe in God but I said if its true and there is a God you will go to hell because thats what the Bible says.

By pointing to those sites I am trying to answer your question. The link shows how I believe and points to Bible verses. Why ask if you dont want the answers?

actually i do believe in god, thank you

what questions did i ask you, and what answers were provided in your links, and what was it that i denied?

edit:

I know you dont believe in God but I said if its true and there is a God you will go to hell because thats what the Bible says.

in that statement, you just proved my entire point. imho, the reason why so many people reject christianity is because of unwelcoming statements like that. luckily, my belief in god has been firm prior to many discussions where people have said similar things, and they don't turn me away from god. it just makes me questions christians themselves.

Truly, I didn't mean to infer that the link you provided carried mis-informtion, CGM. Rather, I meant that for every religious leader, there is an 'interpretation' of what the words in the Bible mean. And like most humans, we have a tendancy to 'pick and choose' what makes us, as individuals, more comfortable.

What I was trying to say, and obviously said badly, was while the exact words remain the same within the Bible, for instance, we've got an interpretation by some leaders that says I'm am doomed to burn in Hell. And I, because of who I am, simply choose to believe the other interpretation that no one here on earth can possibly know who will - or will not - go to Heaven or Hell as only God will make that determination when the actual time comes. (Please refer to earlier quoted verse from Paul in New Testament - does this interpretation not make sense to you, I wonder?) Please note I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here that God truly exists - gentle smile).

So one link interprets the exact same words from the Bible one way, and another link interprets those exact words differently. Same words, just different human interpretation of those words.

For instance, the word "heathen" conjures up all sorts of mental images, yet although I do 'qualify' for that label technically, I consider myself very 'spritual' (I hope that makes sense as I'm having difficulty finding the right words here).

There seems to be two sides to the very same faith, at times. Others, including Ambellina, who mentioned in one of her posts that she is, what I think of as a 'happy' Christian, seem to share the belief that it's who you are, really truly are deep down inside, that will count at the end - and believes in a gentler more understanding God. (Please correct me if I'm wrong here).

And by human nature perhaps, more people are drawn to a version of a God that offers kindness and peace, tolerance and understanding versus a version of a God that promises the brimstones of Hell 'if'.

Personally (and again it's only my opinion), I suspect God would prefer a world filled with 'heathens' who simply tried the very best they could, did as little harm as possible to themselves or each other and ended all this bickering and war and human agony, all in the name of Him. Surely, God must be weeping.

I am sorry I thought you were atheist. Sorry for the mix up.

I understand what you are saying mara. I just dont have much I can say.
Thanks

Well, a huge a massive ugh to myself, dear CGM - truly, I'm blaming the mix-up on my having a wicked cold (when people say, "How's your cold doing?", don't you always have an urge to say, "Better than I am, but thanks for asking". - huge grin).

I re-read my last post and no wonder I've caused confusion ... when I said I was "giving you the benefit of the doubt that God exists, I meant "for the sake of argument" in that particular discussion regarding the different interpretations of the Bible.

Didn't mean to mis-lead you, truly, for yes, I am an atheist - gentle smile. But that doesn't mean I'm right and you're wrong - nope, it simply is who I am. Another gentle smile.

Hi everyone. I just started reading this thread and so far it has been interesting.

As to the passages above that you quoted about the disciples and the man casting out demons in Jesus' name but was not part of the disciples group. Yes Jesus did tell the disciples not to stop him. Scripture does not say whether or not that person had become a believer or not. I do think that Jesus was trying to make a point not to automatically reject someone just because they were not part of the group of disciples. now as to the passage in Romans. You have to understand the difference between the the old covenant (made with Abraham and was defined in the Law of Moses) and the new covenant (the fulfillment of the Law through the blood of Jesus). You are correct in stating that God saves how He choses to save. There have been examples in the old testament where people that did not have the "law" followed God and were counted righteous. most of these examples however were before the time of Moses ( Abraham, Noah, Job, Melchizedek), when God gave the exact letter of the law. But God put in those peoples hearts the desire to follow his will and their actions mirrored what would eventually be written as the law. These people are good examples of what was meant by Gentiles that did not have the law but followed what God considered right.

Now to explain the difference between the old and new covenant. Under the old covenant, a person had to follow every rule that was contained in the law and had to make the appropriate sacrifices at the temple to gain forgiveness of sins. It primarily showed what God considered sin. Jesus fulfilled the law and was the last sacrifice needed because he was the only one born without sin and never sinned his entire life. With his death on the cross, a new covenant between God and man was made. This new covenant freed us from the law and wiped away our sins. the bible clearly states That Jesus is now the only way into heaven. That is the reason for for what is commonly called the great commission (go forth and make disciples of all nations). This new covenant only has 3 commands.

1) Love God with all your heart, mind, and strength.
2) Love your neighbor as you love your self.
3) Go out and preach the gospel to all the world and make disciples of all nations.

Now as to people having different interpretations of the same passages in the bible. This is because person A is looking at the passage with ideas of what is should mean already in their mind, The same with person B. Neither agrees with the other because they are wanting their point of view to be right and pride will not let them admit that they might be wrong. This is what has caused more splits in the church that anything. Pride. What both people didn't do is to set pride aside and take the matter to God in prayer. God will tell them what is meant in the passage.

Constantine. The proof of God is all around you. From the shear size of the universe down to the way the atoms that make up your physical body all work together to make you able to live. If God had not willed the universe to exist then none of us would be here debating this. The proof of His existence is in His creation.

I hope this helps.

Seafox14

CGM,

I just want to make sure I fully understand what you are saying.

I work hard, I treat others fairly, I do good deeds, I give to charity, I am good to my wife and kids, I am kind to strangers, etc etc.

Now according to you, because I am Jewish, and we don't believe in Jesus Christ being anything other than another Jew, does that mean I, my children, wife, family etc are going to hell?

Very well said seafox!

Grinler, I read in the Bible that nobody comes to the Father but by Jesus.

The Jews or some Jews believe that Jesus has not came yet.

I think you would like this:
http://www.harpazo.net/101/List.html

Its a list of prophesies that will or have came true in the Bible.

Number 42 on the list there says this:(I have the book it may be different number than the site)

Though Israel would be the focus of many fufilled prophesies, most Jews would remain blind to the fact that Jesus is their Messiah until the very end.
(Luke 19:41-42; Luke 13:34-35; Romans 11:25-26)

Your link does not work. I understand some christians may think our Messiah is Jesus come again, but our torah states that our messiah hasn't come as of yet, so therefore it can not be Jesus. What makes the Christian bible more accurate than the Jewish Torah? We were first you know? Our messiah also has nothing to do with heaven but rather a person who will come and lead the Jews back to the holy land and usher in a world of peace for all people of all religions.

Also in the Jewish religion, Jews do not follow Judaism necessarily as a religion but as a way of life. Jews are taught to act according to the laws given to them by and to have a convenant with God. They don't act this way to get the reward of heaven, but because these are the laws given by God and thus they live that way as part of their convenant with him. They also do not believe that our way of life is the only way to have a convenant with God.

As this is not a Judaism class, I will leave this link in parting if anyone wants to read about the differences between Judaism and Christanity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism_and_Christianity

Human's are a rational people and as such we are made to question. Therefore the amount of diverse religions in the world. If people are made in God's image, then wouldn't that mean that God would want us to reach him in different ways? I could not see a benevelont God not letting someone like the dali lama into heaven if such a place exists just because he reaches God in a different way than other religions do.

What really gets me, though, is how people act in a certain way just because a book says it should be so. If the Bible said that everyone who wasn't white were bad people would you believe that too? If so then that's very sad as you should use your own instinct when judging people and not what an old book tells you to do.

Here's my two cents worth:

The relationship between God and humanity is one of love. It is when we reject that love that we run into problems. Through that love we are to love one another. The image of God is in each and every human being. To reject another human being is to reject God.

There is no way that any human being can know the mind and heart of another human being. How can we be so arrogant as to assume we can know the mind and heart of God? We cannot.

God loves his/her creation. I cannot envision God as destroying that which he/she created out of love and said "It is good."

I end on a parable:

There were three blind men who came upon an elephant. One man felt the tusks of the elephant and said: An elephant is hard and curved with pointed ends. The second man felt a leg and said: No, no. An elephant is like a tree. The third man had hold of the tail and said: No, no. An elephant is like a rope.

None of these men were wrong really, but none of them were fully right either. Even if all three put their images together, they would not know what an elephant is because each one could only feel a part of the elephant. Likewise is our understanding and knowing of God. God knows us, and that is the important part. In conversations with others, the understanding we each have of God grows and deepens if we each have an open mind, but I will only know what God is fully the day I die.

Orange Blossom

Hi Grinler,

Thanks for the link - I'm off to learn about the difference more about Judaism!

I see that your question, "Now according to you, because I am Jewish, and we don't believe in Jesus Christ being anything other than another Jew, does that mean I, my children, wife, family etc are going to hell? " wasn't answered, at least not directly. Huge, huge sad sigh.

For what it's worth, there are thousands if not millions of true Christians out there that would shout "No!" to that question and if I'm wrong and there is a God, I'm betting that Heaven will be filled with people just like you and your dear family, not those that have created strife and war all in the name of their God.


P.S. Our posts 'crossed each other', but just wanted to say that your words are beautiful and they truly touched my heart, Orange Blossom! Gentle hug!

Actually, if you read my post more deeply MaraM, you would see that the answer to that specific question is 'no'. Edit: cross posts indeed. I have wonderful enlightening conversations about God with people from many diverse religious faiths. We all learn and grow from each other.

To my way of thinking, the best witness of God's love is how we live our lives. Actions speak much more powerfully than words.

I also firmly believe that to unseat someone else's religious faith is an act of violence, and I will not be a participant in any activity that goes about trying to uproot other people's beliefs.

Orange Blossom

"Now as to people having different interpretations of the same passages in the bible. This is because person A is looking at the passage with ideas of what is should mean already in their mind, The same with person B. Neither agrees with the other because they are wanting their point of view to be right and pride will not let them admit that they might be wrong.


This is not the only reason that interpretations can be different. For any Biblical passage:
1. Some may understand the text as allegorical or symbolic or poetic, rather than literal.
2. Some may justifiably offer a different translation of the original, depending on their knowledge of the use of the words in the text at the time it was written, or because another, current expression may better fit than for example, a word-for-word literal rendition.
3. Some may take the particular passage and understand it within the context of a larger segment.
4. Because texts can, especially with ancient languages, have variations, one may choose on critical grounds to use one of these in preference to others.

At the same time, one can hardly expect an individual NOT to come to a text with "meaning in their minds" simply because the use of language or thinking presupposes words have a particular meaning, or range of meanings.

Regards,
John

Oh dear, I feel like I've messed up somewhere along the way mightily, but I truly did read your post thoroughly. In fact, I was thinking of you when I wrote the words, "For what it's worth, there are thousands if not millions of true Christians out there that would shout "No!" to that question", Orange Bloosom.

I was referring to your words, "There is no way that any human being can know the mind and heart of another human being. How can we be so arrogant as to assume we can know the mind and heart of God? We cannot". They are beautiful words and honestly do make my heart smile! (Did I write my post incorrectly, I wonder? - because if so, please let me know as woe, I'm apt to make errors ever so often).

I wonder if this sounds silly to others but I have this huge belief that first we are either a good person or not, and it's the goodness that will (should?) shine through at the end, not perhaps the label we give to faith? And even people such as myself are perhaps not villians because of our lack of a recognised Faith, rather just people who, for whatever reason, have managed to find peace within ourselves without it.

You've also brought up a very good point, one that my friends and I have often discussed:

(Quote) "I also firmly believe that to unseat someone else's religious faith is an act of violence, and I will not be a participant in any activity that goes about trying to uproot other people's beliefs". (Unquote)

Your posts and posts of others here have shown time and time again that many, many people, regardless of their Faith, show tolerance and understanding of others not sharing that same particular faith. And I often wonder if my querying the 'rigid' Faith of some, seems like I'm knocking Faith itself. I hope not, as Faith is a lovely thing (yup, even believed by a atheist like myself - gentle smile) but to be honest, I do weep at all the damage that is done in our world by people who truly mean well but can't seem to see that because one doesn't share their Faith, it doesn't mean either is right or wrong, just different.

I weep for the condemnation of prostitutes (who knows why they become one or the hell they endure), the intolerance towards those mothers struggling mighily over whether to abort or not, judgements against others because they love and commit their lives to someone of the same sex, the fury often directed against those that are in pain beyond anything we can imagine and no hope for a cure or relief and they beg their loved ones to help them end it. I know I must often seem like a 'Pollyanna' - but why can't mankind just be kinder and more understanding towards each other, I wonder? Gentle sigh.

Ah, Mara, it is all-too-easy for those who do not have to struggle about such questions, because they have THE TRUTH, to quickly condemn anyone not sharing their interpretations. I would certainly think that God would cherish those who struggle and anguish over a choice far more than he would those who, waving their unblemished banner of certain truth, march to war against all non-believers and help them find their way to hell all the more quickly with the thrust of the sword. Harder than a camel passing through the eye of a needle is the chance of a bigot getting into heaven, to paraphrase.
Cheers,
John

No, you didn't mess up. We cross-posted is all. Your edited version mentioning the cross-post posted while I was composing my second post. It takes me a long while to type.

By the way, you might be interested in reading C.S. Lewis's The Last Battle, the last volume in his Chronicles of Narnia. Actually you might like the entire series. These books actually had much more reality to me than the Bible ever did. In these texts there is an entity called Aslan who usually appears as a lion who is creator and saviour both. In The Last Battle there is another entity called Tash who stands for all the cruelty and wickedness. The people of Calormene worship this entity called Tash. Now here is what I find so moving. A young man who was Calormene found himself in a wonderful place and then he saw Aslan.
Lewis, C. S. The Last Battle. New York: MacMillan Publishing Company, 1956, p. 156.

Orange Blossom

What a very, very kind posting, jgweed - gentle hugs! You actually know me far better than you may have realized as I literally burst out laughing when I read "struggle", for surely I struggle each and every day with stuff like this. In fact, I'm beginning to think it's a 'curse' to be born often seeing both sides of everything and living in a world where I see more 'gray' than black or white in most eveything- grin.

And I've added C.S. Lewis's The Last Battle and the entire series to my trusty list I drag with me to our local library every week, Orange Blossom - thanks for the suggestion, they sound great! And don't worry about typing slowly, either - nope, it's the end result that counts! Happy smile! (Although I often wonder if the majority of the school could/should offer typing as a basic course for all - my grandchildren 'hunt and peck' just great at the keyboard but bet a typing course would ease their frustration).

Living by the Jewish Law (aka. the Law of Moses) means that when the end comes and God judges the earth, You will be judged according to that Law. I know the Jews were given special knowledge of God and were set apart by him to as a special people for Him. I know many Jews don't believe that Jesus was the Messiah. Most Jews at the time of Jesus were expecting a leader that would overthrow the Roman occupation and reestablish the Jewish nation. Now I have not read the Torah, but from my under standing the old testament in the Christian Bible is contains much of the Torah and the books of the Prophets. Many of the prophesies that I have read about the Messiah state that he would save Israel from it's sin. Jesus fulfilled the prophesies about the Messiah. here are 18 prophesies that Jesus has fulfilled just for starters.

1) Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem. (Micah)
2) Messiah was to be born of a virgin. (Isaiah)
3) Messiah was to be a prophet like Moses. (Deuteronomy)
4) Messiah would enter Jerusalem in triumph. (Zechariah)
5) Messiah was to be rejected by his own people. (Isaiah)
6) Messiah was to be betrayed by one of his own followers. (Book of Psalms)
7) Messiah was to be tried and condemned. (Isaiah)
8) Messiah was to be silent before his accusers. (Isaiah)
9) Messiah was to be struck and spat on by his enemies. (Isaiah)
10) Messiah was to be mocked and insulted. (Book of Psalms)
11) Messiah was to die by crucifixion. (Book of Psalms)
12) Messiah was to suffer with criminals and pray for his enemies. (Isaiah)
13) Messiah was to be given sour wine. (book of Psalms)
14) Others were to throw dice (i.e. cast lots) for Messiah's garments. (Book of Psalms)
15) Messiahs bones were not to be broken. (Exodus)
16) Messiah was to die as a sacrifice for sin. (Isaiah)
17) Messiah was to be raised from the dead. (Book of Psalms)
18)Messiah is now at God's right hand. (Book of Psalms)

These are just a few examples of the prophesies about the Messiah that Jesus fulfilled. The Jewish Law does spell out what God considers sin and a guideline of how to live. It is possible to live according to the law and not break it, however, this is very difficult. The consequences for breaking the law was sin and death unless the appropriate sacrifices were made at the Tabernacle or later the Temple. The temple was destroyed and has not been rebuilt yet so there is no way to make the sacrifices required under the Law to atone for sin. That is why the gospel of Jesus is called the Good News. A final sacrifice was made for all who would except Jesus as their Saviour and put their faith in him. Only one person was born without sin and can truly be considered good by God's standards. That person is Jesus.

I'm not posting this to browbeat anyone, but to try to provide a clearer picture of why I believe that Jesus is the Messiah and is the only way to heaven. Even Paul ( Saul of Tarsus), who was a Jew and a Pharisee, believed that Jesus was the Messiah.

I cannot force anyone to believe what I do. I can only point the way. you have to take the step onto the path and make the choice on your own. My prayers go with all of you. Even the ones that have no faith in anything and say that God does not exist.

May God grant you Peace, and show Himself to you.

Seafox14

The Torah is the Pentateuch which is the first 5 books: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, and Numbers.

The Torah plus the books of the prophets has a different name. These books are ordered differently than the Old Testament in the Christian bible. The Old Testament of the Christian Bible was assembled translated into Greek and by 70 scholars.

The Talmud contains all the Hebraic sacred, and some perhaps not so sacred, writings. There are two of these: the Babylonian Talmud and the Jerusalem Talmud which have very different contents.



I beg to differ from this interpretation. Here is one very good example from a Psalm written by King David that suggests that sacrifices of animals etc. were not the means to atone for sin:


Psalms 51: 16-17. RSV

There are many paths and many ways of knowing. Who are we to say that one path is valid and another is not?

Orange Blossom

9/11 is the Crusade of the modern world.

and it's all down hill from here....

thats a very negative comment and i believe that it is unfair to say that becuase of 9/11 a new crusade has begun.

i see in many places where people say about differences in their religions, i know there are differences but as i pointed out to joygreen awhile ago, we should look for our similarities rather than our differences. differences cuase people to become estranged, thinking they are left out/ or are better than others, similarities let us all see we are human and have much in common which makes us less likely to fight eachother over a small argument.
one day i hope the world will be at peace and we will all work together for the betterment of our lives, and the lives of the living things around us.

Look at how the Middle East has been since 9/11... Middle East was somewhat peaceful before 9/11.

Why the Jews think that Jesus is not the messiah is simple. He did not bring about world peace and justice. I think we can all agree that our world is not a peaceful or necessarily just one. THis page sums it up better than I can:

http://www.conncoll.edu/academics/departme...aism/jesus.html



I am not sure where you got this information, but it is incorrect. Yom Kippur, which means the day of atonement, and in some sense Purim, are the holidays where a Jew atones for their sin. From what I understand, God writes your sins in the book of judgement. On Yom Kippur your judgement in these books is sealed. Yom Kippur being the last chance you can change this judgement by demonstrating your repentance and making amends. This holiday is only for your sins against god. For your sins against a person you must seek reconciliation with that person by righting the wrongs you committed against them.


Noone who thinks that only christians can enter heaven really answered my question. What makes your Bible the only right one? There are many religions out there, many that are much older than christianity. I guess my main problem is how certain sects of Christianity have no tolerance for other people's religions. It's their way or no way.



Couldn't say it better

i still do not believe this is right in saying, especially in this topic. the crusade word is commonly used by people who
a. hate bush
b. dont like the war in iraq and need some sort of reason they believe it has gone "wrong"so they pick oil or crusade.

even though

a. we are doing a good thing by promoting democracy/power to the people which when you look bak at history shows we dont have wars with other demacratic nations.
b.we only hear about troops killed we dont hear about what good our soldiers are doing, about the curage of iraqi police men, the courage of the people at the head of the iraqi gov't

not only that but the crusades were a religious war by the christians on the muslims, and the muslims fighting back. that war should have never started as i dont believe that by saying "join us or die" your spreading your religious beliefs considering both religions teach peace and love, i would think that by showing your actions about how you live, people will say "why is he so happy" and you will say "i am happy becuase of my religion" and then they may ask to learn more.

comparing iraq to a war where thousands were killed over religious intolerance is ignorant. i am sorry to say to you.

When I said that 9/11 is like the modern crusade, I am not referring to our actions, I am referring to the Muslim extremists, of how they made the first move and how they are the ones trying to start something. In addition, look at Iran who has been quoted that they would like to Israel wiped off the map, I see some tension boiling.. and unless something is done to compromise both sides this will last forever.

I don't think all our military power will ever give peace to the Middle East, we may try but it will fail. Spreading democracy may and should work, but will it be a start to peace? I hope so...

When I first read the header of the thread DSTM started here, although it said, "Religious Tolerance", I thought, "Religious Intolerance".

It seems to be as old as mankind has records of life. While many who believe in God, whatever they conceive him to be, are gentle and peaceful souls, there has always been atrocities done in the name of religion.

Sadly, I don't see this ever changing.

I don't remember when I first heard this as a child, but it's stuck with me through the years:

If Only We Were Crayons ...
We could learn a lot from crayons:
some are sharp, some are pretty,
some are dull, some have weird names,
and all are different colors....but
they all exist very nicely in the same box.

What my TOPIC should have said MaraM,is "Where is the Religious Tolerance"
The verse above says a lot of things.If only we could all live in harmony.
Sadly,when we were created,I don't think we were given the tools necessary.
The world is full of countries trying to force their views on other countries regardless
whether they wan't it or not.Also religious zealots trying to force their beliefs on us.
Often,I say to myself,"GOD,Please save me from your followers"
I can't see World Peace,judging on our past performance.
I laughed when I read this Quote yesterday.Maybe it is.

"Maybe this world is another planet's Hell."
- Aldous Huxley (1894-1963)

Further to my first post in this thread,this Islamic Shiek has really lost his marbles.This is the latest outburst.I'm sure the majority of his followers do not agree with his philosophy.Also he has urged all Iraqies to take up arms, as a radical group here is teaching,and kill every person that has killed an Iraq citizen.He said he intends to run for a seat in Government here.Our Premier said to him,'BRING IT ON"Muslims around the world would be disgusted with his outbursts,I would think.
Heres the link.

http://www.news.com.au/sundaytelegraph/sto...5006009,00.html

i didnt bother to even look at the link as i know many are disgusted that muslims are often targeted as being radical, and uneducated, heathens. this is all just not true i urge everyone to go to places such as
islam.com
which can help in providing a better understanding of islam. islam means itself "peace" or "to surrender to god's will". unfortuneatly becuase there are extreamists that like to attack civilians and hide behind what they say is violence in the name of religion, most muslims get a bad name.

Yes, truly ussr1943, most know that Muslims are peaceful, loving people - and DSTM's link simply confirmed this and as his post said, most Muslims and non-Muslims are truly angered by crazy people like the mentioned Islamic Shiek.

I know we all have freedom of speech, but when someone, anyone, starts encouraging people to kill others, this freedom is not necessary any longer a good thing - and the thought that this particular person is even considered as eligible to run for a seat in Government - eep! We have these zealots in all countries, sadly.

Excellent point, I agree 100%.

You are right MaraM,and most people would agree also,I would imagine.
I believe Christianity is a good thing,but I have my doubts about Religion.To me,when so many terrible things have happened,all hidden behind the name of Religion,I have serious doubts.I think too much emphasis is placed on Religion,when in my opinion there are far more important things going on in our lives.I am not saying abandon Religion,just keep everything in perspective.
Most of my relatives are what I call Religious fanatics,and from the moment they get up in the morning till the time they go to sleep,talk nothing but Religion.Makes me sick.Bring up any other Topic for discussion,and they don't want to know about it.
I think Religion can take over one's life to the point,where it starts to become unhealthy.IMHO.

Yes, I must agree - anything, inlcuding any religion, included can turn from 'faith' to 'blind faith' as so many of the Cults have shown us.

And perhaps that's where the most danger lies, not just for the person directly involved but for others, as well.

Suicide bombers, people who give all their money to their 'leader' and give up all connections to their family and friends, people who subject their children to very 'odd' ways of life --- yet, all are firmly following their 'faith'.

Tolerance regarding religion is, for me, tolerance for all those who believe differently than I, no matter how 'foreign' it seems to me - providing no harm is done to others through that belief.

If this occurs, I don't consider it an attack on someone's religion if we try to stop them - rather it's an attempt to stop someone who will harm innocents because of their beliefs. Simply put, do not harm to others and I'll defend religious tolerance to the end of the earth - hurt others, directly or indirectly, and I have no tolerance at all.

Hey gang, I always thought the bible was the word of God. If we have a relationship with Jesus, His word makes perfect sense. I know that if you are "educated" you can think outside the box and picture yourself as god recreated. I have always asked these questions: Why would 12 men all suffer horrible death over something that wasn't true? If Jesus is who He says He is, and He did what the bible says He did, what did He do to piss off so many people that they can't believe the written eye witness testimony of 4 gospel writers. Jesus simply said "follow me", and that He is the way, truth, and the life. Why would He lie?

I am not entirely convinced that the arguments presented are compelling.

"Why would 12 men all suffer horrible death over something that wasn't true?"

Why would hundreds of Japanese pilots commit suicide by aiming their airplanes into warships, why would hundreds of young Arabs strap bombs to their bodies and blow themselves up? Fanaticism and ignorance.

" If Jesus is who He says He is, and He did what the bible says He did, what did He do to piss off so many people that they can't believe the written eye witness testimony of 4 gospel writers."

I don't think characterising legitimate questioning of the historical validity of Gospel accounts as motivated by anger is very productive. There are very sound grounds for not accepting eye-witness accounts of ANY event, let alone something that transpired 2000 years ago, when eye-witnesses saw, for example, dragons. The text of the Bible, moreover, can be subjected to the same historical criticism that is applied to any text; another perspective derives from the usual caveats of any translation from one language to another, with the added problem of resolving the meaning of words from a past time to those current.

And if Jesus, or his disciples, lied?
One lands oneself in circular reasoning if one expands the argument. One can only believe his veracity if one already believes him incapable of falsehood, and one believes THAT on the basis of his claims.

Regards,
John