Well seafox14, I don't beleive in God, so which law will use Him for my judgment when the end comes?
Respectfully,
Darthy

actually Darthy, i think you might be alright according to Christian law. i am pretty certain that there is a passage in the Bible that reads [paraphrase] "Be either hot or cold, for if you are lukewarm I (God) will spit you out."

salud
bg04

It says in the Bible that those who are not with God are against God.
There is no luke warm.You are either for God or against God and all that are against perish in hell is what the Bible says.

There is a prediction in the Bible.

One day all the believers will be taken up into heaven. Millions will just instantly vanish. This will wake up many people and they will turn to Jesus and be saved.

i'm pretty certain that the bible also stated that the earth never moves and that its flat.

Uh, neither ambellina's nor CGM's posts consist of flaming?

They're having a heated debate of course, but that's not a bad thing. No need to whip out the ban-stick just yet.

i wasn't flaming cgm =/ i was pointing out that the bible is not faultless. . . apologies if i was too harsh =/

For me the Bible is a book like any other.
Believing that you are right, the words that you quote from Bible CGM are responsible for millions of deaths in the past.
I don't believe, if God exists, He thinks that way. I think, if He exists, that God is love and He was incapable to tell something like those words. You know CGM, God, if He exists, doesn't think like an ordinary and fanatic man.
Respectfully,
Darthy

I am not flaming just posting calmly. Ambelina I am not sure what arcman meant about the flaming I thought we were talking.

How sure?

Have you read the Bible miss ambellina?

"Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:"

http://www.firstbaptisthenderson.org/10reasons.html

Darthy I think you will want to read this:
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/hell.html

Here is another about hell
http://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-hell-fair.html

I agree ther's no flaming. Actually enjoy follwing it.



But this is incorrect . I've read it and there is no mention at all of these two concepts.

Psalm 104:5: “Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.”

Job 9:6, Job 26:11 refer to the "pillars" of heaven and of earth trembling. 1 Samuel 2:8 states explicitly that the "pillars of the earth are the Lord's, and he hath set the world upon them."
(taken from religioustolerance.org)

i'm not sure which versions these are from - but they were interpreted at one point or another as meaning that the earth is flat and didn't move.

my point was, that by saying "the bible says so, so it must be" is probably not the wisest thing to do. you say things as if being biblical references automatically makes them true, but surely thats not true of all things in the bible? galileo, the poor guy, was put under house arrest because his belief in heliocentricity didn't go along with christian beliefs and the bible. the earth was said to be immobile. . . the bible said so. . . see?

i agree cgm - i didn't see anything that would count as flaming either. . .

That's what I find so much of a problem with the Holy Bible.The verses are written in such a way as nothing is clear cut.Too many interpretations can be taken from one verse.Thats why there is always contraversy instead of unity.
Sorry Ambellina,I believe you got meaning of those quoted passages dead wrong.IMHO.
Nothing mentioned about Earth Rotation or Geographical Landscape,that I could see.

Hi Ambellina,Quoteing Bible verses out of context will often give the wrong interpretation of what was really meant.You have to read a lot of verses before and after to get the real meaning.Without a long Bible lesson,Gen 1.1 In the beginning God created heaven and Earth.What Joab and also David are saying is that the Earth's foundations will last forever.Hope this very brief answer explains what your quoted verses are pertaining to.

I do not think it is a necessary and sufficient condition for a Christian to enter heaven that he believe a lot of silly stories, or that he will be condemned to hell by St. Peter if he refuses to accept that Jonah lived in the belly of a whale, or that Methusala lived to be 900 years, or that Adam and Eve were the first humans.
There are great, essential mysteries and profound truths in the Bible, but these are presented as spiritual parables and allegories, since these are appropriate to all times and places. To consider the Bible a scientific journal, or an totally accurate history, seems to ignore this significance.
Regards,
John

Agree John,there are many spiritual parables in the Bible,and these should be treated as such.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?searc...&version=31

psalms 104. verse five pretty clearly states that the earth can never be moved, if we're going with the literal translation.
but you are quite missing my point my point is, quoting the bible does not automatically make anyone right, and it can only take so far in a debate. obviously passages can be interpreted wrongly, as early christianity seem to have shown (and me, apparently) and i don't see it as completely safe to think of the bible and its quotes as being without fault, as its unclear what it may mean.

that is why I responded. You may disagree but still SOME respect should be granted to those who believe in that

Your right in what your saying about verses being unclear,Ambellina.A lot of the Scripture in the Bible is in my opinion is incomplete,and you just have to guess the answers.I used to ask questions right from the start of the Bible,and got different answers from different Pastors of the Church.EG.Who did Cain have children with to start populating the Earth.I have got everything from his sisters which there is no mention, to having children with his Mother.I used to use the Bible as a general guide only.To me there is a lot of guess work involved in trying to understand the Scriptures.
I had the Bible day and night for 40 yrs.I have not opened a Bible for the last 20 yrs.I have not put foot inside a Church for the last 20 yrs also.I was replying to your post purely from memory,and I am confident I got it right.

EDIT.There are some14000 Manuscripts in the Hebrew Tanakh language,and around 5300 Manuscripts of the Greek New Testament,and written by so many over a long period of time,to me its no wonder some of the scripture is not with the normal clarity,I would expect.
I will bow out of this part of the discussion now ,as I don't feel I am on a level playing field due to my time away from studying the Scriptures.However,I have an open mind and will follow it closely.I respect everyones opinion in that which they believe.

exactly my point. you are either for or against God. He will love you either way and accept you if you accept Him. but He will reject those who are lukewarm.

if hell is everlasting, how can one perish there? according to many, references to hell in the Bible are actually pointing to the trash pit outside of the walls of Jerusalem, where trash and dead bodies were burned [fire and brimstone].

imagine for a moment that you are a parent. one that loves their child without reserve. if your child disobeys you and puts their hand onto a hot stove, would you punish them for their insolence by holding their hand on that stove for all eternity? God is Just, not Barbaric.

you speak of the Rapture. only 144,000 will be allowed into Heaven, not millions. those that disappear will die. those left will have a choice during the reign of Satan (mark of the beast). duriing that time those that repent will likely be killed for their beliefs. then, God will banish Satan, and "the meek shall inherit the Earth." the Earth will become the paradise it was intended to be and those judged worthy will be resurrected to inhabit the Earth. this is if you ascribe to Christian belief.

i do not believe in hell, as in a place the bad people are banished to for eternity to suffer. this is not balanced. i believe in eternal death. the opposite of eternal life.


heliocentricity was heretical to the Catholic Church, not according to the Bible. many of the scientific controversies surrounding the bible were actually due to the Church.

personally, i cannot envision a God that would punish those who genuinely didn't believe. that is not just, or benevolent. i refuse to believe in a Creator that would banish Ghandi to everlasting torment.

Where would you get that from?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=144%2C000++heaven

Well, CGM is speaking about the rapture in his his post here.
This is a reference to a verse in Thessalonians and references a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. I believe according to the pre-trib interpretation of Revelation, the 144,000 refers to the number of Jews that will convert to Christianity after the rapture.

I don't know of any Christian theology that uses 144,000 as the maximum number of people that will be accepted into heaven.

We did a study on revelation. Its a very interresting book in the Bible.

surely those who found heliocentricity to be against religion quoted the bible in their references, whether they interpreted it correctly or not. that alone makes me disagree with people who say "the bible says so. . ." as well as taking out certain things in god's name.

imho, the bible is a little sketchy. in some parts he is portrayed as being very angry and jealous, and i remember reading something a while back about genocides that god supposedly performed, among other things. . .
i adore god. i'm comfortable with where i am in my spiritual journey. i'm comfortable enough to admit that i don't always hold the bible in the highest regards, and comfortable enough to say that without fear that god will strike me down at any minute. i don't think i'd want to worship a god who wants his followers to lose touch with reality and i don't think god would want that either. but thats just me.

this is true. the bible was written in Latin during these times, so that common people could not read it. the church would not allow any challenge to their supreme power. it is truly sad.

i only know some of what the bible says, i am no expert, nor am i very religious. as Constantine would put it, i like throwing a 'spanner' into the conversation. i like to be made to think, so i like to make others think. to question is the only way to understanding.

ambellina, i sympathize with your feelings concerning the bible. like the 144000 post. there are so many ways to interpret what this means. is it symbolic or literate? in the story of Moses, why did God harden the Pharoah's heart so many times? read it, it makes no sense to me. human interpretation allows for so much wiggle room, it is difficult to rely on anything but faith.

there are some great messages to be taken from the bible, as well as the bhagavad gita, as well as the gnostic gospels, etc. my God embodies love. i am sure that there are other planes and levels of love that we as humans cannot understand, but that is how i break it down. i will not believe in a God that would punish us for making mistakes in such a confusing world. i guess we will all find out at some point or another.

What? God does not harden anyones heart. It says PHARAOH hardened his heart.

We are given free will it says in the Bible. We choose our path.



If you read in the Bible it says all he asks is that we believe and ask for forgiveness and we will be saved. It then says those who make the choice to not believe well you know go to hell.

it actually says "God caused Pharoah to harden his heart" repeatedly.

of course, different versions of the bible may say different things. does that muddy the waters or what?

Poor Pharoah.

Actually, as I read it, the Bible goes both ways, that God hardened his heart and that Pharoah himself hardened his heart.

Cf.:Ex9:12,10;20,10:27,11:10,14:8 for God doing the action.
Cf.:Ex7:13,7:22,8:15,9:35 for Pharoah's doing the hardening.
There are other "hardenings" which are attributed to neither agent.

There is, too, the passage (Ex10:12)"And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him: And that thou mayest tell in the ears of thy son, and of thy son's son, what things I have wrought in Egypt, and my signs which I have done among them; that ye may know how that I am the LORD."
After terrorising the Egyptian populace for some time,God made his point by killing innocent first born male children of the court as well as the poor peasant farm families quietly residing in the countryside by the mighty Nile. Personally, if the translation is correct, I find such tactics morally reprehensible, whether done by God or by Sunni fanatics.

Regards,
John

How many versions has the Bible?
How can we know which is the true version?

That doesnt mean God forced pharaoh to do what he did.

You would need to think of the context of what hardened meant in that verse.

I had not seen that verse or didnt remember it when I said above God did not harden his heart.

I noticed that while the 'hardening of the heart' seems to be the theme right now, the accurate statement made by jgweed has not been responded to.

Quote: After terrorising the Egyptian populace for some time,God made his point by killing innocent first born male children of the court as well as the poor peasant farm families quietly residing in the countryside by the mighty Nile.

I've always found it very odd that some things are taken from the Bible and adhered to as the truth and only the truth - yet the horrible, horrible things this same Bible says were done either by the Lord or with his full approval, are either glossed over or simply chosen to not be taken literally.

Can't help but wonder how religious leaders decide what is truth and what is not truth within the Bible itself - and then teach millions of people their own version of what they understand the Bible to mean.

Here is the answer to jgweed's statement. As harsh as it may seem to those how don't believe.

1) The Egyptians had been shown that God existed and had previously saved that nation from a large scale famine 430 years prior to the exodus.
2) The Egyptians had turned their backs on God and kept on worshiping false Gods (sorry if this offends, but it is a true statement).
3) there is only one punishment for sin when one is totally unwilling to repent. that punishment is death. This was stated to humanity from the moment we were first made and put in Eden.

John, the translations are correct. God did Harden Pharaoh's hart to show the Egyptians, as well as the Hebrews His power. You have to remember that God already knows what is going to happen. from the moment that He created time to the moment that He ends it, He knew everything that would happen from the beginning to the end. He already knew the way the Egyptians would react to the Jews trying to leave.

I'm out of time this morning. got to go to work. I'll finish the post later.

Seafox14.

1. How do you know for a fact that the translation is "correct" and what does "correct" mean in the context of Biblical translations?
2. How does God know what is going to happen? How did God create time, and how does he exist in it? How does God "know" events?
Regards,
John

What I don't understand about a religion is this.

Let's, for a moment, I've been a Christian all my life and want to switch over to the Muslim faith. So right there I'm damned to hell for leaving Christianity and no longer believe in first said God. However, according to my new God, I can't be damned to hell, because we don't believe in hell. Therefore, I am saved.

However, from the Christian aspect I'd still be damned to hell, but I really would not be because it is what I believe that counts.

Actually from what I understand, correct me if I am wrong, you can still believe in God but if you don't believe in Jesus your damned to hell.

The subject of biblical translation is a daunting one, I won't go into too much detail myself as I'm obviously not a biblical canonical scholar, but it basically goes as follows. Ideally for a fully accurate biblical translation you would want to work from originals of the torah (old testament) and the septuagint (new testament), but seeing as how we're dealing with documents 2000+ years old that have gone in and out of the dark ages, we obviously don't have what could be considered "original texts". What we do have are copies upon copies upon copies dutifully reproduced throughout the ages. Ideally what we are looking for in these texts are the oldest reproductions we can possibly find, because we can expect these texts to be as close to the originals as possible, without some of the accidental copy-errors that tend to slip into newer texts. This is why newer translations are generally considered to be more faithful copies of the original texts than say the KJV translation. The KJV was based on the best set of original texts that were available at the time, but since then we have found older, more reliable texts. That's not to say that the KJV is a particularly bad biblical translation (The Living Bible is a very good example of a very bad translation), you can still learn plenty of valid Christian doctrine from the KJV, but it isn't without its inaccuracies.

So far as question #2, according to Christian doctrine God is the creator of all things, all things inclusive to space and time. God is referred to as eternal without beginning or end, so then we are to assume that God is the author of time and is not bound by its constraints. If you are asking how this is possible I'm afraid there aren't any definitive answers for you within or without Christian theology, as such questions are matters of faith and belief.

If God is time or created time and created everything around us, I agree. However, one thing that puzzles me is that God said (or what the bible really says)

Genesis 1
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

2 Now the earth was [a] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

And it continues on how he created the rest of everything here on Earth. What about the other planets in our solar system? For the moment we will assume he created those.

Now what about our galaxy? God specifically says he created Earth (and assuming it's immediate surroundings). We all know there are several hundred thousand more solar system exist. If God created those, wouldn't he have created life else where? If he didn't create them, how did they get there?

Now let's get bigger, outside of our galaxy are several hundred galaxies together in our big universe. Our universe must be part of something even bigger? If infinity exists, then there must always be something bigger.

If we ever do make it so the end of the universe, how do we know it's the end, what is on the other side? How many universes make up a bigger unit (we'll call it A), and how many A's make up a bigger one (B's). It will go on forever.

The universe has no center and no end.

It said God created the HEAVENS this would mean the rest of the galaxies.

How do you know? If it has no end, how do we know what is filling up at the other side? And farther out? We cannot say for sure.

You said only galaxies, what about our entire universe? What about the stars and gases floating aimlessly by?

Actually the universe does have a center the Milky Way galaxy (our home) does revolve around a fixed point.
http://www.universetoday.com/2006/07/24/pl...ellar-rotation/

~~~
05-19-2005, 05:31 AM
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/astro-ph/pdf/9703/9703082.pdf

http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9604049

Authors: V.A. Korotky, Yu.N. Obukhov
Comments: 22 pages, Revtex
Journal-ref: Published in ``Gravity, Particles and Space-Time'', eds. P. Pronin and G. Sardanashvily (World Scientific: Singapore, 1996), pp. 421-439

We overview our recent studies of cosmological models with expansion and global rotation. Problems of the early rotating models are discussed, and the class of new viable cosmologies is described in detail. Particular attention is paid to the observational effects of the cosmic rotation.
~~~

Using the "God created the HEAVENS," that means I'll go to space when I die? God is located at the Galactic Center?

Even according to one of your sources: http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/0807tj.asp We ARE the center of the Universe


In plain and simple, 100 years there was no such thing as a universe, heck they were still figuring dark mater and the theory of relativity, etc... all religion and science is a game of playing catch up, when something new is Discovered and cannot be denied, then they make up stories or find evidence which backups there version.

According to nova the universe has no center and no edge. Thats where I got that from.

The heavens would mean everything.



The Bible has predicted things that would come true today nearly 2000 years ago and was correct.

But has it predicted the events before it happens? Did the Bible predict 9/11 before it happened. If not then it's not really predicting anything at all. It is just as accurate as Nostradamus.

Of course it predicted events before it happened.

The book of Revelations is all about whats going to happen in the future.

Damned to hell!

Can one just be damned to purgatory?

Can one just be damned to the outer suburbs?

If hell is a real place, I wonder what the zip code is? Do they have health care?

When moving through the seven levels of Purgatory, do you need to use public transport?

I am so confused

" Damned to hell!

Can one just be damned to purgatory?

Can one just be damned to the outer suburbs?

If hell is a real place, I wonder what the zip code is? Do they have health care?

When moving through the seven levels of Purgatory, do you ned to use public transport?

I am so confused"

I am confused to what are you trying to say?

I am not really trying to say much of anything Cow...It was my poor attempt at humour

I'll have to put a padlock on that Toolbox of yours, Constantine,
so you can't keep throwing "Spanners".

I believe it's those of the Catholic Faith that believed in purgatory (sort of a 'waiting' area after death) - but I think it's no longer part of that faith, CGM.

While I can't speak for Constantine, for myself, while I know it's meant with no cruel intention at all, being told I will "burn in hell" conjures up the imagine that I and others like me who don't happen to believe in your God are such bad people that we deserve to be condemmed to the worst thing possible that the human brain can think of. And to be honest - and I mean this with kindness, truly I do - it's a tad offensive.

While I respect other's beliefs, when I hear that 'hell' waits for me, I object - not because I believe there is such a location, but because it has the connotation of punishment well deserved for us 'evil' people here on earth that choose to believe something different, no matter how good or kind or loving we are to others here on this planet.

Wouldn't it be lovely if all religions preached that good people deserve a good 'ending' and perpetual future - and only bad people (deemed 'bad' by their actions and not their faith) would deserve a perpetual future that corresponds with the 'burning pits of hell' type thing. Gentle sigh.

Mara. Let me ask you this. If a child willfully goes against rules that you made for their safety, and have already spelled out what will happen if they break those rules, do you apply the punishment or do you let them get away with it?Also if you tell that child that willfully disobeyed that you will forgive them if they do what you tell them, and you lay out what needs to be done for you to forgive them, do you still withhold the punishment if they again willfully disobey and don't do what is required for forgiveness?

Whether we like to admit it or not we are all God's children. Our entire race (i.e. humanity) has willfully been disobedient from the very beginning. Our race has not change a single bit through out the thousands of years we have been on this planet. We are just as violent, though most use video games to let out that violent streak. We are just as prone to lust and sexual immorality. Just look at the the amount of money the porn industry makes each year (and that is just the legal porn industry). God has given us more chances than we deserve, but will eventually call us to account for our actions on this world (this includes Christians). Those that have given their lives to Jesus will go to heaven though their position is determined by how faithful they were with the tasks god gave them in this life. Those that have not given their lives to Jesus will be judged according to old testament law as given to Moses by God. That law is very strict and demanding. God does give us many chances ( from the moment that we are old enough to understand the concept of right and wrong, to the moment we die). With that said, God can hardly be called unfair. He has given our race (i.e. humanity) multiple warnings through out the years. just some examples.

1) Noah warned people for 120 years that god was going to destroy the earth for the sins on humanity. Mankind had that long to repent and not a single one did. only Noah and his family were saved.
2) God warned people through out the law given in the old testament what would happen if they disobeyed, including the fact that they would be removed from the promised land if they Failed to follow his law. the law was given to the Jews around 1445B.C. it was not until 743B.C. that the northern Kingdom was destroyed by Assyria and then until 586B.C. that the kingdom of Judah fell to Babylon.


Yano, their have been prophets on the bible that predicted events before they happened. Jeremiah predicted the fall of Jerusalem and that exile from the land (only have enough time to give one example. have to go to work in 20 minutes). Their are other examples Isaiah, Daniel, among others.

As to your questions John. I have read multiple translations of the bible and the examples you site in Exodus say the same thing with slightly different wording. Remember the English language has roughly only half of the descriptive words the Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic have. Reading different translations does provide a better understanding of scripture and I highly encourage it.

Well, I'm out of time. Must get ready for work. Your questions are welcomed.

Seafox14

Yes, for someone who believes in your God, I can truly understand your reasoning, SeaFox.

In fact, I went off and refreshed my memory of why I left the Christian Faith - gentle smile. Not because it was filled with kind people such as yourself and many other Christians, but because it was filled with things that go against my own personal moral code.

For instance, I've included a link that confirms what you've said in your latest post - written by a Christian, as well, who wrote about Jeffrey Dahmer ("a man who abducted, raped, tortured, murdered and cannibalized his many victims") ... yet it also says:

(Quote) "Well, I would like to tell you a true story about Dahmer which was reported in the "Christian Chronicle" and "The Daily Oklahoman" newspapers. A Christian lady named Mary Mott saw Dahmer on a TV show discussing his need for inner peace. Mott mailed a series of Bible lessons to Dahmer which he completed and mailed back to Mott. He thanked Mott and said he wanted to become a Christian. Through a series of events a Christian minister, Roy Ratcliff, went into the prison and studied the Bible with Dahmer. He was immersed in water for the remission of his sins on May 10, 1994. He continued to study the Bible every week in prison until the day of his murder, Nov 28, 1994. One TV report quoted Dahmer as saying that he was at peace with himself and God, just two weeks prior to his murder.

God sees all sins as equal. Yet for many people they cannot even consider that Dahmer could be saved. That is because they mistakenly think that our salvation is based upon our good works rather than the unmerited favor of God. I call this misconception, "balance scale salvation". They think that as long as the good outweighs the bad that they will go to heaven. Well, not in God's eyes! For unless the citizen of the year truely repents of his one and only sin he ever committed and believes in Jesus as the eternal divine savior, it is he who will go to hell and Jeffery Dahmer (with true repentance), will go to heaven! (Unquote)

http://www.bible.ca/s-Dahmer.htm

Yes, this confirms exactly what you and CGM and I'm sure many others believe.

But I am not a child that must be set right for my own good. Rather I am a women who - simply because of who I am, really really 'am', cannot worship a God that slays thousands of innocent people including tiny infants simply because they do not believe in Him (ego) - (your example is only one incidence but "Mankind had that long to repent and not a single one did. only Noah and his family were saved.) is just that, a good example.

Nor get my mind around the concept that people who are all the things I admire in a human being are 'doomed' simply for not believing in Him (ego again) - yet Heaven could be filled with people similar to Dahmer that have commited atrocities throughout the centuries but had the 'good fortune' to repent and believe just before death.

While I have only respect for any person who believes in any peaceful religion, I struggle with the fact that while some of them believe Christianity is being "attacked", sadly it is often many of these same people who cannot seem to sense that their own faith "attacks" any and all who don't believe in their particular concept of Christianity.

This is not not not intended as a 'flame' (think I have that expression right?), rather as my own personal belief system ... that very old adage, "Be true to yourself" combines, for me, the concept of what Christians refer to as the Ten Commandments and bits and pieces from many other Faiths. I personally do not need to believe in a 'vengeful' God to be happy here on earth - and because I am no longer a Christian, I have no fear of 'burning in the pits of Hell', thankfully.

But each day I walk this earth, I and millions of others try to fill it with love and laughter and kindess, generousity and many other things we consider make a 'good' human being. Now, in all honestly ... if I'm wrong and your right ... would you rather have Jeffrey Dahlmer or people such as myself as your neighbour in Heaven, I wonder.

I don't write this to insult anyone, rather to perhaps help explain how intolerant I often feel religion can be of those that have different beliefs.

With respect,
Mara

So, can you tell me when and how, and what will be our next big terrorist attack on America? Or when World War 3 (if any) will occur, or a Nuclear War? Or exactly when Palestine and Israel wall finally come to peace (and not this 5 years before the end of the world, that could be tomorrow). If the book of Revelations can predict what is going to happen, it could supply a date.