A subject always in the news,and many people seem to have different opinions as to whether they have had plastic surgery,or are considering having one procedure or another.
Wondering as to your opinions regarding the Ethical views,religious,medical or moral you may have.
Do you think it's OK to alter the body or looks you have been born with?
I personally would never change my appearance for anybody,because it's whats inside that really counts.
The only exception to my opinion would be if I was disfigured from an accident or medical condition.
There is also the risk involved and a prime example is Jocelyn Wildenstein,poor woman.
The latest craze is having your pets looks or body features changed to suit their owners whims.
I came across a link which I think Plastic Surgery on dogs is going too far.Love to hear your views.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/216...facelift17.html

I personally would not, I don't see any moral problem with it or else I'd be upset about women wearing makeup... Shoot, I won't even spray paint my head or do a comb over when I lose more hair. My wife said she would have a little done to herself to help hide her age, but is not obsessed or anything. She has better things to spend the money on.

I used Google to see photos of Jocelyn Wildenstein - and cripes. I don't say this to be cruel but in reality I've seen facial burn victims who look more 'normal' - huge bewildered sigh.

My first thought was that someone had been 'doctoring' her photos using editing programs - but the more I searched, the more I realized that this was reality. And my second thought was don't physicians have to swear to 'do no harm'?!!!!!

Am all for plastic surgery for medical reasons plus following accidents, etc that cause severe disfigurements - and if one has the money and the inclination to edit their body via surgery they can and should be able to choose this option to feel better about themselves. But for those that one or two or three surgeries is never going to be enough and they have the same misfortune as Ms. Wildenstein, surely there must be some medical standards committee who can thump the doctors and revoke their licences? Or then again, guess those truly needy souls would just venture off to another country to have it done.

Personally, it's sad that in our society that we don't spend more time teaching our children that beauty comes in all shapes and sizes. (Luckily the people I love and who love me are quite content to realize I've got a few wrinkles - after all, I've earned them - gentle grin!).

But as for people having their pets done - geesh!! - and makes me wonder what reputable Vet would consent to such a thing!! To me, fixing an 'inverted eyelash' on an animal isn't plastic surgery, rather it's medical - and to read this vet claim it's the same thing as altering an animal's appearance so it appears more "symmetrical" - well, another geesh!

Suspect people will have differing views on 'Plastic Surgery in Children with Down Syndrome', as well?

Good topic, DSTM!

Just saw your message Wildabeast - thank goodness you'll "never spray your head or do a comb-over" if your hair thins!!!

I think advertising and other media images are responsible for a lot of the desire to look other than what we do.

My views of plastic surgery - to repair damage yes.

To simply change appearance - I'd never do it. Frankly, I think a lot of image makeovers look terrible.

By the way, I don't wear make-up unless I'm in a performance or on stage.

Orange Blossom

"Personally, it's sad that in our society that we don't spend more time teaching our children that beauty comes in all shapes and sizes. (Luckily the people I love and who love me are quite content to realize I've got a few wrinkles - after all, I've earned them - gentle grin!)." MaraM

Well said MaraM.

I watched a t.v. show a year or so ago about Jocelyn Wildenstein and all of her surgeries. It was very sad honestly because I thought she was just beautiful before she had her first surgery and I couldn't imagine why she couldn't see it. I don't think she had planned to have as many surgeries as she has but I think on like her second surgery the surgeon screwed up and paralyzed a portion of her face. And from that surgery on she just kept trying to fix the damage until finally becoming addicted to surgeries altogether. In the interview she said that she moves from doctor to doctor now and pressures them, bribes them, begs them pretty much to do more to her poor face. She also said that she wouldn't be honest with these doctors as to the dates of her last procedures etc and after all of the "good" surgeons refused to treat her further she moved on in search of any surgeon that would. The thing that shocked me the most about the whole interview was that she had a very beautiful daughter who was, even after all her mother had been through, planning to have a few surgeries soon herself. Eeeks.

I have known three people that have had some type of plastic surgery done and two of the three regret it totally. One of these women had facial surgery done, she had been so pretty before the surgery and I think she got way too much done, she doesn't even look like the same person. After the surgery she went into a deep depression, wouldn't even go anywhere but to work and is still I think, trying to sue the plastic surgeon. She looks just, really fake (it's hard to explain), like it's obvious she had work done and she isn't now near as pretty as she had been.

Another woman I know that regrets having surgery had her BOOBS done. LOL And she isn't happy because one seems bigger then the other although, I don't notice any difference. But they feel funky (edit: to the touch), and she has virtually no feeling in them at all.

The third woman also had her boobs done and she's 100% satisfied and so is her hubby I'm sure.

All three had been through something really traumatic shortly before having their surgeries. The first had been in a car accident a few months before the decision to have surgery and the second had lost her husband about a year before. The third chic had recently lost her mother to cancer but she had always been very materialistic and kinda selfish. She has to have the best of everything and I guess she thought that she needed the best boobs too. Now that she has what she thinks is better she's happy and prolly will be until she flies somewhere and they explode. Er, sorry. I don't know what kind of psychological screening is done but none of these women in my opinion should have been permitted the surgery, at that time anyway.

I'm not against plastic surgery if someone is having it done for themselves. Like they are totally "with it" in making the decision and they are not doing it for anyone other then themselves. But the idea of plastic surgery for someone else makes me sick. I know that men have surgeries too but to me it's mostly women gettin' bigger boobs and they are doing it to attract men. I feel sorry for these women. I'm sorry but I am not willing to alter my body, give up all feeling in my breasts and not even be able to nourish my future babies just so some jerk will look at me a bit more. What's next? Retractable teeth for better blow jobs?

I think that plastic surgery should be available to anyone that wants it, although I think these people should be screened first and it should be thought about for a long time, like having a year waiting period or something.

I feel that it's societies fault the people feel the need to change themselves. T.V. tells us all what's sexy and beautiful and "in" or not cool. It used to be aimed mostly at making women want to change but lately I've noticed more and more commercials and movies aimed at making men feel like they are lacking somehow as well. It's like these money making powers that be feel like well, we've gotten all we're getting out of the women so lets move onto the men. Can you imagine a male " erectile dysfunction" commercial aired in the 80's? OMG! Now it's every other commercial. I have been with my better half for almost 18 years now so I can honestly say if it "dysfunctions" every now and then, or when it finally starts to, cool! LMAO

I don't think that wearing makeup is anything like having plastic surgery, to me it's a temporary I dunno, highlighting of one's natural features.

For those that say god would disapprove of any alteration to ones natural self, have you never gotten a haircut? I'm not exactly a religious person although I do believe in a god and I think he/she would not go for plastic surgery or any other physical harm done of one's "temple". At the same time I don't think he/she would hold it against someone who was mentally not able to make the decision.

Boy, I talk too much. IMHO The doggie plastic surgery is just going WAY TOO FAR! Poor puppies, that should be considered animal abuse! Apparently those money powers I mentioned aren't getting rich enough off of those poor men, they've moved on again.

Another such case where I think Plastic Surgery was a disaster was Taylor on the Bold and the Beautiful.
For years I thought she was so beautiful, and to go and get a (please inflate these lips to 40 psi) lip job,has destroyed her once beautiful face.
She should sue her Plastic Surgeon.IMHO.

Reconstructive plastic surgery: Good
Cosmetic plastic surgery: Generally stupid

I'm all for people have plastic surgery if their features or appearence have suffered greatly due to an accident, disease, bacteria, etc. Or, in the case of birth defects, Recon. plastic surgery can give people a chance to look normal.

However, most cosmetic surgery i find to be completely pointless and stupid. Most people getting plastic surgery are vain, and try to obtain the "perfect" body. This often leads to narcissism (sp?) or an addiction. The worst part, to me, is the false advertising. Bigger breasts that aren't/don't feel real? Liposuction every couple of months to maintain a good figure? Just stupid.

Also, if some woman who has had countless plastic surgeries to become "attractive" had a baby that was more along the lines of her original appearence, there's the risk of the mother putting her daughter through the same hell, the father not loving the mother as much, or the parents generally dissatisfied w/ their offspring. Granted, these aren't THAT likely to happen, but i have heard about things like it before.

I seem to be with the crowd on Good if needed for damage and small imperfections.
But the rest is amazingly insane and it doesn't last. Without a lot of words I submit "Michael."

Thinking about the disasterous results that we can see on so many ... wonder if they see - really see what they now look like in the mirror. Surely not? Or else they wouldn't continue? Must admit, I'm dumbfounded. (As for 'Michael' - well, all I feel is great pity both for what's been done to his face and for the fact this man must have no true friends, as surely a true friend would have been honest and said stop long ago?).

The only person I 'knew' who had cosmetic surgery on her face was a woman in the semi-private room in the surgery unit with me. She was 82 and in for her 4th face lift - and I remember wondering how she thought a face life would truly 'help since her hands and neck and undoubtedly the remainder of her body would still look her real age. All very sad, when one really thinks about it.

Have really mixed feelings about parents choosing to submit their Down's Syndrome children to plastic surgery, though. For me at least, having the 'protruding tongue' worked on would seem 'medical' rather than plastic - yet having the yes altered??? Surely this can only be for looks to make the parents perhaps feel better? Or maybe I'm just missing something.

You feelin 'em? What?? I read natuarly one is always bigger anyways...

You cant nourish babies if you get breast implants? I didnt know this? Seems like that would make men not want to marry women who had that done.

I think its stupid to have boobs or anything else done unless you get hurt badly or something.

There are other ways of feeding babies other than through breast milk.


As to plastic surgery:

For medical reasons..of course..

For beauty reasons.. As far as I am concerned, if a person has the money, and it makes them feel better about themselves, then I see absolutely nothing wrong with plastic surgery. Self image can really determine a person's happiness...and who am i to tell them they shouldn't do something that may have a positive effect on their life. They are not harming anyone so who am I to criticize it. I may not agree, but it is not my body.

As for pets...I completely agree. That should be illegal in my opinion only for the fact that you have absolutely no idea what harm you are doing to a pet and obviously whether they want it or not.

I do agree with everyone that its a sad world that self-image means so much and that it drives people to have PS.

Well I know that. We feed our calves milk replacer. They have it for humans to. I read natural milk is best though.

Cosmetic plastic surgery: I think it's an hobby for some rich people, sometimes with irreparable results.
I think the ultimate paradigm of those kind of surgeries is Michael Jackson.
For pets, I think it's a crime.
As for reconstructive plastic surgery, for medical reasons, of course I agree.

total agreement darthy

Like many have said so far, I think reconstructive surgery is a wonderful thing...helping to piece lives together again.

As for cosmetic surgery, perhaps it is more of a symptom of an unhealthy society than a problem in and of itself. We are so driven by image and youthful appearance that we can't accept ourselves for what we are...we determine personal value by our looks rather than who we are. Our culture's obsession with materialism and the economic system we employ only compound the issue...each new commercial goes to further extremes to show us the "perfect face" or "perfect body." It's the carrot hung in front of the tortoise, the goal that can never be reached.

MaraM, I agree, what's wrong with wrinkles? I wish everyone lived long full lives and had their share of wrinkles...but we don't all get that chance! When we obsess about youthful appearance we loose sight of this fact.

It would be nice if people simply put their energy into overall life-long heath (physical, mental, diet, ect). They'd feel better, look better, and enjoy what really counts about youth for many more years than they might otherwise.

Society as a whole has all sorts of little messy things going on for lots of inter-related reasons. I think the key thing in this is choice.

What ever floats your boat in it! the thing is....there aint know way of telling what your dog wants although its probably happy to have a nice smelling bleep, tickle on the tum and a nice juicy bone LMAO, i really dont think that they be worrying about their ears being a bit too big or getting tit enlargements when half the time they'd rather be rolling in sheep bleep (speaking for my and my friends dogs) LMAO

It would make an EXCELLENT Gary Larson cartoon sketch of the dogs considering what surgery to go for ha ha haha....mind you, just thought, we get our animals neutered and spayed, infact encouraged by the gov to do so everyday, and i wonder if they had a say if they would want that done? MAAAAD WOW is there a comparison in this??

If choice is the issue of cruelty in animal plastic surgery then is not neutering and spaying them cruel?

Just a thought s'all he he BYE

Plastic Surgery.... hummm.....

Micheal Jackson

Cher

It's not half bad I think.

I wouldn't 99 times out of 100 people look worse after it, and their wallet feels worse.

Plastic surgery...

I think altering one's physical appearance is justified in case of damage or minor deformities, such as cleft lip. However, completely changing one's face in order to be physically attractive is going a bit overboard. Not only does plastic surgery cost a lot of money, but it is also unfair to those who cannot afford such an operation.

On the issue of cosmetic surgery for pets... I think forcing one's dog to get a plastic surgery is just disgusting. What gives humans the right to cut up animals for aesthetic purposes? Perhaps with the dog's consent it would be justified, but definitely not for human entertainment.

In my opinion, people do not need plastic surgery to look beautiful. If one really looked hideous enough to require a face lift to be accepted by the community, I doubt that a surgery could fix the problem. Of course, there are people who ended up looking worse after the surgery... *Michael Jackson*

Anyway, I believe that people who are beautiful on the inside are radiant enough without having to alter their faces. What counts is on the inside, right?

See I was taught and i firmly believe that inner beauty is moreimportant. I believe in this so much so that I feel really bad when girls wear make up, society has gotten to be about looks, not whats on the inside.

I pretty much agree with what has been said so far. About medical purposes and such. However, as for the beauty, botox, and (women - chest) I'd say it'd not required. And in most cases shouldn't be allowed.

However, no matter how much good evidence or conversation is put up against it, doctors will continue to do it as a "hobby" as long as they are being paid the big bucks.

Plastic surgery Huh?? Hmmm!! Well, when it comes to breast enlargement,nose jobs, face lifts etc. for the sake of making yourself look better, in your opinion, or esp. the breast enlargement to please your husband or boy friend!! Nope, don't think so. If you can't be accepted for who you are rather than how you look what kind of people are you hanging out with? I think they're the wrong ones. Back to the breasts, If your hubby or boy friend wants you to have it done tell them fine, if they want to have it done too, see how they like lugging those babies around!!! Now, breast reduction is another thing. It is almost always done for medical reasons. It is a known fact that women who have extremely large breast suffer from multiple back ailments, the long term effect of which can be at the very least uncomfortable and at the maximum not healthy for the back at all and present a signifigant health risk,i.e. slipped discs etc.

There is a reason that I do agree with fully for the use of plastic surgery and that is to correct severe deformaties that , for whatever reason, a person has been afflicted with. My youngest sister was born with her right ear folded over and slightly smaller than the other. At the time of her birth she was too young for x-rays or any test that could have been used to determine if she had just laid on it wrong while developing or if it was a complete deformaty. When she turned about 5 yrs. old they did surgery to open up the area that was hidden by the folded over part of the ear. As it turned out it was a complete deformaty, there was no ear canal at all. At that point they did do surgery on her to build a "new" ear, or as close as they could come to it looking like an ear. Approx. 6 surgeries latter she had an ear. Now I know it doesn't sound like something that was necessary but to my little sister it was, children can be extremely cruel, that surgery saved her alot of misery and embaressment. She still can't wear her hair very short, she keeps it just below the ear lobe which works fine and at that length it looks like she has an ear. The term plastic surgery doesn't apply here either. To make her ear they removed cartilage from her chest and did skin grafts using skin from her behind, luckily the scars that it left are very minimal.

At the risk of sounding flip about the subject there were other advantages to them building her a new ear. If one of us looses an earring we give her the one that's left, she's not allowed to put an earring in the one that was made,thus we recycle. When she had to get glasses she now had a way of holding the sides up equally!! She also can, so to speak, turn a deaf ear to you and unless you knew the situation you would just continue to ramble on, never knowing she wasn't listening to a word you said!!! Don't get me wrong here, I'm not making fun of my sister, she's as good natured about it as anyone about the situation. That being, I'm sorry, rather long windedly being said, I rest my case!! Thank you!

That's such a great example of wonderful surgery and I'm so pleased your sister was able to have it! You're right, there are few things as cruel when they sense another child 'different' than themselves - but that aside, I bet she felt so much better about herself.

And I surely understand the humour you used to tell her story, Iodine - gentle hug! - in fact, that's one of the greatest things, being able to laugh together about something.

Thanks MaraM for the kind words. My sister does indeed feel good about herself. She is 42 now and we still have the same sense of humor, all of us kids do. It's what has kept us together and helped us thru some of the roughest times in life.

Laughter can cure so much!! or at least help you forget for a little while...

Question: Where is the line between beauty surgery and correcting a deformity?

Also South Park Season 9 Episode 1 deals with just these issues in a deep and meaningful way.

I hardly think that you can call the correction of a cleft palette & hairlip,a birth defect, or disfigurement from a tragic accident plastic surgery for the sake of beauty. I seems to me that this would fall more in the realm of a merciful kindness unlike those that seek beautifying enhancements such as face lifts, eye lifts, botox treatments for wrinkles and the enlargement of lips etc. simply to fit in with what happens to be the beauty fad of the time.

Perhaps people with disfigurements etc. should learn to live in this world as they are and hope that they will be accepted for who they are rather than how they look. That would be the ideal situation if we lived in an ideal world, but we do not. We live, unfortunatly,in a world where the most inhumane thing in it is man himself!! I'm sure the point made in the South Park episode that you speak of was all well and good and had a lesson in it for everyone,however, we don't live (thank God) in South Park we live in the real world where cruelty abounds!

I hear that Mrs. Iodine. Sadly the world that we live in now (or at least has been for a while) is all about looks. If anyone has seen any of the t.v. shows with people with disfigurements that endure the pain and discomfort procedure after procedure just to try to fit in with society will understand the difference between "beauty surgery and correcting a deformity". Some of them HAVE to go through the many different surgeries just so they can be able to talk, eat, breath, etc. Alot of the times its not about beauty, but more for health reasons. For these people going through it all is worth it, but is it really worth it for people who don't have a disfigurement? Who just want to look "pretty" and then "have" to go through it all again years later just to have that same look again? Or better yet having something go wrong and have the regret of doing it in the first place? I can go on, and on about this topic but I think you get my point.

Where is the line between a big nose and a disfigured nose? Is a nose the size of a tennis ball a disfigurement? I think yes, that it is. Is a nose a fraction smaller than a tennis ball a disfigurement? Is a nose a fraction smaller than a fraction smaller than a tennis ball a disfigurement? I think you see where I am going with this.

"Correcting disfigurement: good, and beauty surgery: bad" is a completely reasonable position. But it requires a clarification of what is a disfigurement and what is merely ugly.

Oh great -

now you'll have the tennis ball folks getting with the ACLU and claiming you've defamed them!

Good thing you don't have a radio show - they'd be calling for your firing, too.

When you get the exact measurment down, please let us know. I'm sure there are many people out there suffering that would really like to know where the parameters are before considering such a measure as having plastic surgery. I'm not trying to "flame" at you but I think you are nit picking a bit. I guess it all comes down to each individual case doesn't it. What brings one person emotional or physical pain may not bother another. So in actuality your opinion or mine doesn't really matter does it?

As far as I'm concerned, enough said.

If I have offended you or your sister, I apologize. It was not what I intended.

I am nitpicking, I admit, but the actual measurement doesn't interest me. I was merely using it as a way to illustrate my point. Trying to draw an objective line is a undertaking doomed to failure. Who's to say what pains one or another? If the supermodel is suffering from not being as beautiful as her peers, who am I to tell her the botox injection is wrong? Added to the mental anguish is the possibility of loosing her job.

Even if our opinions do not matter to them, they matter to us.

Mr Alpha, you are right, our opinions do matter to us and we are all entitled to our opinion..even if we don't always agree on the subject at hand. It's our right to agree that we disagree. Don't you agree??
There is one matter that you brought up in your last post that I would like to comment on however if you don't mind, Who the heck wants an unemployed, super model with fat lips????? Do you suppose after those botox injections to enlarge their lips that they can still whistle (assuming that they could before)?

*raises hand*

There is one in every crowd.

*looks around - there are a lot of hands up in the air*

I am not alone.

Does this apply to neutering also?

hehehe, sorry, just picking for discussion purposes

Jump right in nn23, the waters fine!!

By the way guys, my hubbie raised his cotton pick'n hand too!!! He may not keep it for long

But, when I asked the dog if it wanted to be neutered,

he raised his paw!

Hey, a raised paw sounds like an affirmitive to me!! Has he told you whether or not he's satisfied with the results of the surgery?

Ask him if he wants his lips pumped up

My wife walked past the monitor a while ago, saw the above post and said, "Put that one on the TO DO list"and we don't even own a Dog.

uh oh, getting a dog or the neutering?

I said "Are we getting a puppy" She said "Nope"

oh NOOOOO ...aaaah *images of DSTM in boys choir*

HA HAAA bring back the casterati thats what i say

Poor, poor DSTM, what the heck did you do?

It reminds me of this one time where my brother (hes 4yrs younger than I) when he was nine he walks up to me and whispers in my ear "I've been neutered" I looked at him like and asked him "What?!?!?" then just started busting up laughing. I asked him if he knew what neutered meant and he just shrugged and said no. It was too funny. I bring it up every now and then to him and we just laugh. Now thats one of the joys of having younger siblings, and being the eldest.

Good one 'Cozy'

Some Husbands are Dogs.
Here's my Photo. You be the Judge.
http://rachelandthecity.blogspot.com/Free_Dog_2.jpg

Ohhh man that was a great one. Now I have heard of animals looking like there owners but you take it wayyyyyy past the next level. No wonder why your wife wants to neuter you. The detail in that picture is awesome, who ever did it also did some thinning of the hair on top of his head.

Laughed out loud when I clicked on the link, DSTM!! Whoever 'photoshopped' the image is talented as it takes ages to get something that perfect.

Doubt if you are in serious danger of being 'neutered' - but just in case, a huge bouquet of flowers for your wife may save you future pain

Not that I can tell,

but he isn't barking as much at

the bitch next door!

John I thought you at least had some manners, now there you go calling the neighbor lady names again!!

DSTM, as I type this in I still have the image of that picture in my mind , I can just about see to type for the tears!!! You poor dog faced thing!! Oops!! There's Ken on the floor, I can't tell if he's in shock or just hysterical, he got a look at it too!!