I'd pick Capitalism. For a variety of reasons, practically all of which I don't really want to mention because that almost never goes well on forums such as these. Regardless, Capitalism is what I'd choose.

kbk, Re: not wanting to mention reasons because it almost "never goes well on forums such as these".

Perhaps not at all forums - but I have found that the people here at 'Bleeping Computer' really do give us a chance to debate without 'being eaten alive' by the opposing side - gentle smile.

On a personal note, I think it's the differences between all our views that make us think, really think - and help us learn why we believe what we do and that we could possibly see the world is filled with grey areas, rather than always black and white or 'right' and 'wrong'.

Yes, I would like to think that, but I've thought that in the past on certain forums and still been eaten alive. Plus I am pretty sure I'm greatly outnumbered here and I don't feel like bringing in my reinforcements :D.

Just a bit curious ... since we live with Capitalism, what so you do to try to change the ways things are, if you don't mind my asking.

I'm afraid about the most I do is vote regularly (if I didn't do that, I wouldn't have the right to grumble, right?) - but other than occassionally writing my local MLA when I truly object to something, I honestly don't do much else to try to change our government.

(I've always found it 'interesting' that although written in a firm but always polite way, only one of my letters was ever replied to - and the answer I got to that one was all in 'politic-speak' - meaning it said a lot without saying a single thing - gentle grin).

Like most of you,I would like our world to be in better shape than it is.
Having limited knowledge about Communism,and feel that Capitalism
has it's shortcomings,I would like to pose this question to the learned.
Would it be feasible, to take the best of both, to make a way of life that's
better for all of us,or is Communism and Capitalism so vastly different,
that it would be impossible to implement?

DSTM.

i believe communism is a great idea in theory however as soon as a protalitariot is made it fails, becuase we are no longer equal. there needs to be a hybrid gov't.

I would think that using terms like "proletariat" can certainly lead to considerable confusion when thinking about politico-economics. Even in the 1850's when economies were much less complex, the application of the term might not have been really meaningful because it was so general that either a great many activities or hardly any could be pointed to as characteristic of the class. One of the more fuitfull viewpoints engendered by traditional laissez-faire economics was that any archetypes could be avoided because it employs an atomistic model that does not need the economic explanatory power of classes.

Given that universals inevitably falsify existence to the extent they ignore differences to concentrate on apparent similarities, their use always, I would think, needs to be qualified with great care.

Regards,
John

I think democracy has lost it's way,when Negative and Attack adds are allowed as the norm.
On a TV documentary here the other day,a US senator was being interviewed.When asked "why do you lie so much?" His answer was "Because we are allowed to." To me,this doesn't give me confidence in any government,mine or yours.

Communist Goals (1963)

Congressional Record--Appendix, pp. A34-A35

January 10, 1963

Current Communist Goals

EXTENSION OF REMARKS OF HON. A. S. HERLONG, JR. OF FLORIDA

IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

Thursday, January 10, 1963

Mr. HERLONG. Mr. Speaker, Mrs. Patricia Nordman of De Land, Fla., is an ardent and articulate opponent of communism, and until recently published the De Land Courier, which she dedicated to the purpose of alerting the public to the dangers of communism in America.

At Mrs. Nordman's request, I include in the RECORD, under unanimous consent, the following "Current Communist Goals," which she identifies as an excerpt from "The Naked Communist," by Cleon Skousen:

[From "The Naked Communist," by Cleon Skousen]

CURRENT COMMUNIST GOALS

1. U.S. acceptance of coexistence as the only alternative to atomic war.

2. U.S. willingness to capitulate in preference to engaging in atomic war.

3. Develop the illusion that total disarmament [by] the United States would be a demonstration of moral strength.

4. Permit free trade between all nations regardless of Communist affiliation and regardless of whether or not items could be used for war.

5. Extension of long-term loans to Russia and Soviet satellites.

6. Provide American aid to all nations regardless of Communist domination.

7. Grant recognition of Red China. Admission of Red China to the U.N.

8. Set up East and West Germany as separate states in spite of Khrushchev's promise in 1955 to settle the German question by free elections under supervision of the U.N.

9. Prolong the conferences to ban atomic tests because the United States has agreed to suspend tests as long as negotiations are in progress.

10. Allow all Soviet satellites individual representation in the U.N.

11. Promote the U.N. as the only hope for mankind. If its charter is rewritten, demand that it be set up as a one-world government with its own independent armed forces. (Some Communist leaders believe the world can be taken over as easily by the U.N. as by Moscow. Sometimes these two centers compete with each other as they are now doing in the Congo.)

12. Resist any attempt to outlaw the Communist Party.

13. Do away with all loyalty oaths.

14. Continue giving Russia access to the U.S. Patent Office.

15. Capture one or both of the political parties in the United States.

16. Use technical decisions of the courts to weaken basic American institutions by claiming their activities violate civil rights.

17. Get control of the schools. Use them as transmission belts for socialism and current Communist propaganda. Soften the curriculum. Get control of teachers' associations. Put the party line in textbooks.

18. Gain control of all student newspapers.

19. Use student riots to foment public protests against programs or organizations which are under Communist attack.

20. Infiltrate the press. Get control of book-review assignments, editorial writing, policymaking positions.

21. Gain control of key positions in radio, TV, and motion pictures.

22. Continue discrediting American culture by degrading all forms of artistic expression. An American Communist cell was told to "eliminate all good sculpture from parks and buildings, substitute shapeless, awkward and meaningless forms."

23. Control art critics and directors of art museums. "Our plan is to promote ugliness, repulsive, meaningless art."

24. Eliminate all laws governing obscenity by calling them "censorship" and a violation of free speech and free press.

25. Break down cultural standards of morality by promoting pornography and obscenity in books, magazines, motion pictures, radio, and TV.

26. Present homosexuality, degeneracy and promiscuity as "normal, natural, healthy."

27. Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with "social" religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity which does not need a "religious crutch."

28. Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools on the ground that it violates the principle of "separation of church and state."

29. Discredit the American Constitution by calling it inadequate, old-fashioned, out of step with modern needs, a hindrance to cooperation between nations on a worldwide basis.

30. Discredit the American Founding Fathers. Present them as selfish aristocrats who had no concern for the "common man."

31. Belittle all forms of American culture and discourage the teaching of American history on the ground that it was only a minor part of the "big picture." Give more emphasis to Russian history since the Communists took over.

32. Support any socialist movement to give centralized control over any part of the culture--education, social agencies, welfare programs, mental health clinics, etc.

33. Eliminate all laws or procedures which interfere with the operation of the Communist apparatus.

34. Eliminate the House Committee on Un-American Activities.

35. Discredit and eventually dismantle the FBI.

36. Infiltrate and gain control of more unions.

37. Infiltrate and gain control of big business.

38. Transfer some of the powers of arrest from the police to social agencies. Treat all behavioral problems as psychiatric disorders which no one but psychiatrists can understand [or treat].

39. Dominate the psychiatric profession and use mental health laws as a means of gaining coercive control over those who oppose Communist goals.

40. Discredit the family as an institution. Encourage promiscuity and easy divorce.

41. Emphasize the need to raise children away from the negative influence of parents. Attribute prejudices, mental blocks and retarding of children to suppressive influence of parents.

42. Create the impression that violence and insurrection are legitimate aspects of the American tradition; that students and special-interest groups should rise up and use ["]united force["] to solve economic, political or social problems.

43. Overthrow all colonial governments before native populations are ready for self-government.

44. Internationalize the Panama Canal.

45. Repeal the Connally reservation so the United States cannot prevent the World Court from seizing jurisdiction [over domestic problems. Give the World Court jurisdiction] over nations and individuals alike.

Earl Browder was general secretary of the Communist Party of the United States from 1930 through its dissolution in 1944. When the party was reconstituted as the Communist Political Association later that year, Browder was chosen as its president. Browder proudly proclaimed that the ACLU functioned as "a transmission belt" for the party. To deny the ACLU's founding was attached at the hip to communist organizations is to deny what can easily be proven as truth.
http://www.mfc.org/contents/article.asp?id=1509

Socialism refers to a broad array of doctrines or political movements that envisage a socio-economic system in which property and the distribution of wealth are subject to social control.[1] This control may be either direct—exercised through popular collectives such as workers' councils—or it may be indirect—exercised on behalf of the people by the state. As an economic system, socialism is often associated with state, community or worker ownership of the means of production.

anyway, i like social democracy...You have 2 cows. You sell both to the rich. The government then taxes the rich one cow and gives it to the poor.
But in Australia, you have two cows. The government nationalizes your herd to control the price of milk and level the playing field for consumers. Each cow has a calf and they grow into cows. The milkers union stage a strike to protest the increase in the number of milk cows. A new party comes to power and the economic rationalists privatize your herd to control the price of milk and level the playing field for producers. The government orders the slaughter of two cows to cut production and control the price of milk.You throw a huge beef barbie, with beer, invite the milkers union, and give a speech espousing the merits of a level playing field. You still have two cows.

those are just thoughts, there needs to be a comunistic society with a capitalistic drive, i'm not sure how to meld that together though.

Like most of you,I would like our world to be in better shape than it is.
Having limited knowledge about Communism,and feel that Capitalism
has it's shortcomings,I would like to pose this question to the learned.
Would it be feasible, to take the best of both, to make a way of life that's
better for all of us,or is Communism and Capitalism so vastly different,
that it would be impossible to implement?

DSTM.

Although, I do not believe in communism, it was only around for 90 years before it died. While capitalistism was first started in the 1200's with the Magna Carta. Democracy was given 800 years. We will never know if communism could become what was proposed in theory by people like Karl Marx because it died in such a short amount of time. However, its extinction can be proof that it is not viable in practise.

Perhaps capitalism as we know it might be placed in the 1750's by the works of Adam Smith.

As for Marxist communism, it's not extinct...it never existed in practice in the first place. The communist regimes we have seen have not followed the Marxist model. The most clear element that "went wrong" was the continued existence of totalitarian dictators. But then, perhaps that was what doomed his theory from the start; once totalitarians have power, they rarely let go.