Hello everone. I just got off a very good discussion of evolution VS creation.
I would like to pose a different question.

If evolution is still a theory and has not yet met the requirements of scientific proof, then why is it being taught in schools as fact.

my personal thoughts are that those apposed to Christianity latch on to evolution as a way to say " There is no God". It is my opinion that evolution has become it's own religion and will not tolerate any other. That is why Christianity has been booted out of the schools and replaced with evolution (ie atheism) in an attempt to forcefully convert children from Christianity to atheism.

what are you thoughts. All view points are welcome.

Because Evolution is the most plausable theory supported by evidence..

Simple really, unless proved otherwise.


Brian

Anyone who claims evolution is 100% fact is just as ignorant as those that claim creationism is 100% fact.


Actually, there's this little thing called "seperation of church and state". Christianity (or any religion, at that) has no place in school without proper evidence to support it.

As snyper said, the most logical (and scientifically backed) version of how and why species are today is evolution, so it should be taught above all other "explanations". It is, in fact, STILL a theory, and most likely will never become law, since one view can't 100% be proven over anything else.

So, again, like snyper said, if creationism, or any other view point, can present the same amount of scientific evidence, evolution should be the main viewpoint taught. If you want anything different, go to a private school not supported by the state.

....don't you just love how anything that doesn't support religion is automatically a movement to destroy religion....?

EDIT: Think about it this way. You go to a new school somewhere in another country, say somewhere in the middle east. Now, would you want your children being taught the muslim way of life, and everything that is contained within the quaran (sorry if i slaughtered the spelling)? You wouldn't want someone teaching your children another religion when they really don't have the evidence to back it up, right?

Show me in the Constitution of the United States of America where it says that church and state must be separated. . The Bill of Rights, in regards to religion, says that the government shall not declare a state religion or make laws restricting the free practice of religion. This was done to prevent the creation of something like the Church of England. Yet last year in Califonia, there were public schools forcing students to learn Islam and was punishing them if they refused. This was done under the guise of tolerance training.

I say go ahead and teach religion in school (public or private). ALL religions. Make them electives so that no one is forced to take them if they don't want to. After all their are those that have elevated evolution to a religion, and there is a religion being forced on students in all public schools in America. Atheism, the non religion religion.

Websters dictionary from www.webster.com
Religion
re·li·gion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (r-ljn)
n.
1
a) Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2 The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3 A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4 A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion

so Atheism does qualify as a religion and that religion is being forced on millions of students across America.
so much for separation of church and state.

Respectfully
Seafox14

seafox14 to BC

The Constitution does say that the government must not make a law establishing a state religion, what do you think a law mandating that the Christian version of creation be taught as fact does? It means that the government has just endorsed the Christian religion above all others. This means the government has just passed a law that tells the children of any other religion that they are not following the correct god. Sounds like it is establishing a religion to me.

This sure goes a long way toward undermining a parents right to train their children in the religion of their choice. Religious training belongs to the parents of the children involved, not to the state.



No one is forcing atheism on anyones children, schools are for teaching known facts and theories, not faith. A child's religious training is a private matter and is conducted at the proper time, location and by the proper individuals. Namely by a child's parents, their clergy and at home and at church. A public school is not the place for religious instruction to take place. Unless it is your own personal religion being taught, it is interfering with others right to the free practice of religion.

Now if high schools were to offer classes that honestly examined all the different major religions of the world and explored their differences so that people would understand each other better, that would be a good thing. I would have no problem with that type of class being required to graduate. But teaching that any one religion has more validity than any other (which teaching creationism as fact does) undermines other Americans right to the free practice of religion and is just plain against what the Constitution stands for.

Why schools teach science (or history, for that matter). Scientific theories and the attendant "facts" are taught because they are both universally accepted by the scientific community, who are the people who devote most of thier lives to investigating the world and confirming theories. One does not see a raging debate about, for the example, the law of gravity; nor do recognised authorities challenge, in a rigourous and crucial manner, the theory of evolution. Knowledge, then, and the theories and methodologies that establish it, are universally accepted, and the rules for challenging the current perspective are clear and distinct, based on reason and not a mere whim of the moment.
If, however, one applies the same criterion to either religion, or any particular religion, one finds that neither qualifies to be classified as knowledge. Any schoolboy can list many different religions, most of which make some universal truth-claim. It is certainly not, given the multitutude of conflicting religious dogma, the state's business to declare one religion, or even religion itself, something that it should meddle in, but rather leave that to the privacy of the home and of individual choice. The state should have "no window on men's souls."

Applying scientific and universally accepted methods, what can be taught, and perhaps should be offered electively to students, is comparative religion or "the Bible as literature"- - -KJV, when they have reached a level of understanding. An understanding of the world, once obtained by a trip abroad by soon-to-be adults, was considered in a more graceful time important in one's education, because it exposed a person to other views, manners, and ways of living than his own. Understanding other religions and other times does just that today.

Regards,
John

I have always wondered why it has been taught as a fact. We just covered it and it is taught as a fact. Actualy this country was founded on christian priniciples and remains that way to some extent. I do not have a problem with people beliving in evolution but it is wrong and i try to talk them out of it.

heretic are you saying that i am arrogant?? I have studied the facts and find the bible to be 100% true so that makes creationism 100% true. Evolution is looked upon as a religion by most so it therefore should be seperated. But due to the fact that this country is ran by a bunch of hethans it is kept. (not calling any of u a hethan but the people that refuse to hear our side of the story and keep it out of young people lifes but teaches evolution in school as a 100% fact.)

People from a local church come to our school once a year with bibles and hand them out but are arrested and sent to jail for 6 months because they do what God has told them to. So we christians are not free we are slaves but yet we still come back and fight for souls. Going to jail is honerable if you go for serving the lord god. I would go and help too if my parents would let me. I always take some of the bibles into school and give them out to all who will take them. I get yelled at and hit but i do it for God and no one will stop me unless i get suspended. We walk into the face of the devil and laugh at him and his decieved followers that are condemed. Why would we do that for a lie!!?? We do it because it is not a lie. I do a devotion at schoold durring lunch pray before I eat and do not participate in anything that goes against my belife in god. It says that I should not associate my self with those of satan and put the evil idea inside me. Instead I am supposed to put gods word into my sould and do as he commands me. I might be beaten but no one can truly defeat me.

A woman is caught in China and is asked if she is a christian. If she answers yes they will shoot her on the spot if she answers no then she goes home. Now she looks at them man laughs and says yes i am a christian shoot me all you will do is destroy my heavenly body but my spirit will be with god this would be an honor. Now she is in heaven laughing at the man who killed her saying that he did as god wished and only showed the weakness of others. Killing the ones who donot belive the same as you only proves you are wrong in evey way. You got no way to prove that you are right so you kill them

Hope this helps

-steve

Evolution shouldn't be taught as 100% fact. As i've said before, anyone that believes it is 100% fact is just as ignorant (yes, i said it) as those that believe creationism is 100% fact.


Yet it is only accepted by a small population of the world, and those that treat it as "100% true" are only able to "prove" it's validity with "creation science" and using the bible itself. Also, don't you find it odd that you keep claiming it's "100% true" without being able to offer any actualy proof outside your religious texts? Don't you find it odd, also, that less than 33% of the world actually believes creationism is infallible and the absolute truth? The earth's population is about 33% christian, and it's fairly clear not every one of those believe creationism to be 100% factual. Even some of the most prominant creation proponents don't claim they have the absolute truth....

"The cat in the hat"..... cats exists..... hats exist....... so thing 1 and thing 2 must exist!! Awesome!!


It's only looked upon as a religion by those that oppose it.... That hardly qualifies it as religion.


Because George W. is the most prominent heretic in the world.... I'm a heathen and damn proud of it.


So you'd be ok with it if a bunch of scientists busted into your church uninvited and started yelling that everything you're learning is incorrect, and you should be reading science textbooks? Yeah...


.....yes, christians are the most persecuted people in the country........ please </sarcasm>


People say killing for god is awesome, too. Where does it end?

You get yelled at and hit for handing out bibles? Well, it seems the people that are "hitting" you are just as wrong as those trying to force their beliefs onto others.


That's all well and good. I don't believe in satan either (although i love his music). As for the "why would we do that for a lie" statement, there's really no way to respond to that. Why do you think everyone in the middle east is blowing themselves up? They're just as, if not more, dedicated to their belief system as you. Does that make them right?


*Cough* CRUSADES *cough*

No I don't want anyone to misunderstand the point I am trying to make. I'm not saying that evolution should be kicked out of schools like christianity has been. All I'm saying is that is should be taught the evolution is a THEORY. But is not. It is being taught a fact and not as a theory. That is my point. If the teachers would just say that evolution is a theory, then at least they would be telling the truth. I think that some of the problem is that people get evolution confused with natural selection.

Natural Selection does happen and is observable. Evolution is not observable in realtime but natural selection is. Now these to are different because unlike evolution, natural selection has been proven. but natural selection does not support evolution because the mutations due to environmental changes are too minor. Not once has a single mutation, or a series of small mutations, cause one species to become a different species. It might be interesting to note that research into mutation has reveled that mutation is caused by a loss of genetic code or, a change with no loss, not an addition of new genetic code. This link gives a good example of this and lists other articles and links that support this point.

The superbaby mutation

Respectfully
Seafox14

I went to public school for 13 years (split between new york and north carolina, but the majority in north carolina), and no class i've EVER been in has claimed evolution as anything besides a theory. You must be around some odd teachers.


The human race hasn't really been around long enough, or cared enough, at that, to observe species changing "drastically". Considering evolution takes thousands of years to produce what could be determined a "different species", it'd be fairly odd for us to be able to track the differences. However, there have been observations of new viruses and bactera being formed from more inferior versions. Even insects have been able to become immune to certain pesticides. After enough change through natural selection, a new species may come about.

Don't you find it ironic that a major argument AGAINST evolution (humans never actually observing evolution) is automatically seen as a moot point when applied to creationism?

Also: CGM tried linking to that same site a while ago, and, just a bit of advice, a christian website isn't the best place to get "facts" about evolution....

You "find" it to be true? Are your truths based on your beliefs? Do you have complete knowledge and understanding of the entire universe? I am guessing no.

I do agree that schools should better explain scientific method. The word "theory" is often mistaken for "guess" or "hypothesis." In this way, "anyone" can come up with such a "theory" (see: Intelligent Design). But a scientific theory is in fact a theoretical framework that is supported by evidence that is gathered through observation and experiment. If any new observation or experiments contradict the theory, and these experiments are repeated with the same results by others in the scientific community, then the theory must be modified or completely thrown out and a new one will take its place.

However, it's rarely so cut-and-dry. In fact, in many disciplines of science new theories simply refine old ones. Take Newton's Law of gravity. Mathematically it can still be used to describe the motions of the planets. But when speeds near C (the speed of light) are reached, Newton's laws are no longer useful. In this way, Einstein's work only refined our understanding of gravity rather than tossing out Newton's contributions.

So rather than keeping your hopes up for new evidence that will throw out our current theory of evolution...expect changes, but most likely we will simply refine the theory as new discoveries are made.

Well said, nothing about evolution is 100% but the above statment accepts different findingsand allows for changes to the theory

Well said.

No my evidence comes from out of my belifes and my bible. I used logic and the scientific method and creationism is still 100%.

Evolution is not only looked to as a religion by the ones opposing it. I have a cousin who follows it and knows hundreds of ppl on the internet that say it is a religion. It should be seperated. Heretic i never said we are the most prosecuted group but in average we are the most prosecuted second to the jews. Yes us christians do have a bad history with the crusades. I do not support the crusades either they were evil you should not force you belife onto others it is wrong and sinful. I am not trying to force my belifes on anyone i am just trying to make sure they hear the truth and consider it. And about would i care if scientist came in and shouted that we were wrong i would be happy about it. We could have a debate about it instead of a normal morning. Most belive that if you question christianity that you goto hell but i do not belive that. I would rather have you question and get the facts straight than accept it with out understanding any thing. About the cat in the hat if you belive that you are crazy. It was all fantasy it makes no sense at all. No matter what i say you never consider it. You come up with more ideas that are crazier and crazier. All this is created by accident by some non-living elements bouncing together for long enough and it got us to where we are today? Why was it us that were blessed with a consience and a brain that can think for itself. All my teachers claim that evolution is a fact and in the text books it even says that. well then those people that claim creationism is not 100% factual are not christians are they. Christians belive in the bible with every ounce. If one part is wrong then everything is.

Jgweed, universaly accepted "facts" as you call them are not neccaseraly fact. Has evolution been proven?

Natural selction and evolution fall side by side with each other so dont even say they are different things.

consider this
-steve

Beliefs don't count as evidence. The bible is an extremely weak form of evidence if taken at face value without scientific proof to verify it. And please, tell us exactly how you came to the conclusion that creationism is 100% infallible. I'm sure every scientist in the world would love to hear about your groundbreaking new information.


Oh noes!! The intraweb says evolution is a religion!? Man, it MUST be true!!

Well, if evolution is a religion, so is the ideas surrounding gravity, relativity, medicine, geology, astronomy....


So, you want people to hear "the truth" (your "truth" anyway), so you're cramming it down people's throats, and telling them that they're straight up wrong.... HOW is that not forcing your beliefs on people?


It was a parallel to "If some things in the bible are true, everything must be true"...


Apparently you don't understand analogies....

I've considered christianity (hell, i considered myself a christian years ago), and the more i heard about it, and the more i read the bible, the less sense it made. So science is crazy but some dude shoving 2/7 of every species onto a boat ISN'T crazy? Uh-huh....


Makes more sense than *POOF*.


Every species has a brain (well, animal species anyway). Humans just got lucky enough to form the intellect we have today. If lions were able to gain that sort of intellect, then i doubt we'd be here having this conversation. You can't look at humans and say "Oh, there's no way we can be this smart on our own"...


I find that extremely hard to believe


Actually, a large majority of the christians i've met at NCSU (students and professors alike) don't rely on the bible 100%. They take it as, and make no real claims to its perfections. Are they any LESS christian because they choose not to blindly believe anything written in the bible is 100% fact?


If you want to play that game, once again, show your proof of creationism. All i've seen so far is "Evolution is crap!! Here's why!!" and "the bible says ....... ".

If i've said this once, i've said this 100,000 times. Take away the bible, and what empirical evidence do you have to support creationism? Evidence that can stand independant of the evolutionary theory.

The simple answer to that is the very complexity of the universe that scientists are delving into Heretic Monkey. There are historic documents that have been found from Babylon and Assyria (modern day Syria) and Egypt that do confirm some of the historic accounts in the bible as well as Roman documentation during it's occupation of Israel (or as they called it Palestine). So there is evidence out side of the bible.

As to telling someone that you think they are wrong is shoving your opinion down their throught? That is debate not forced conversion. No one is holding a gun or as in the crusades (which had no scriptural basis to support them), convert by the sword. The crusades were a prime example of why there are so many warnings in the New Testament about false teachers. Unfortunately there have been many time that christians have not followed the instuctions in the bible to tell if what someone is teaching is false or in line with God's will and teaching through the scriptures.

[/quote]QUOTE
Evolution is not only looked to as a religion by the ones opposing it. I have a cousin who follows it and knows hundreds of ppl on the internet that say it is a religion. It should be separated.

Oh noes!! The intraweb says evolution is a religion!? Man, it MUST be true!!

Well, if evolution is a religion, so is the ideas surrounding gravity, relativity, medicine, geology, astronomy[quote]

It's not just the internet. It's on television, in the news papers, in the class room, in the text books. thge way I have seen evolution supporters treating evolution does quialify it as a religion.
to qoute Websters Dictionary:
[/quote]re·li·gion n.
1
a Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
b A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
2 The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
3 A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
4 A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.[quote]
Pay attention to #4. This is straight out of websters dictionary. As you can see, this does qualify evolution as a religion based on no only how the word religion is defined but by how supporters of evolution are advancing and pushing the theory " with zeal or consientious devotion".

[quote]QUOTE
All my teachers claim that evolution is a fact and in the text books it even says that.

I find that extremely hard to believe.[/quote]

And yet there have been lawsuits filed when some school boards put a note in the front of science text books that simply stated that evolution is a theory and has not been proven yet. see link evolution lawsuit

Also please realize that not everyone who says that they are a christian really is (see Matthew ch 7:13-23)
the clearest proof that someone is truly a christian is the way they live their life. does their life reflect Christ and his teaching. Sadly many do not. I was that way myself. I never gave it much thought until I really started studying the bible. I realized I had fooled myself into thinking I had given my life to Christ. I have changed. I am not perfect by any streach of the imagination, but I have entered the narrow gate and started on the straight path. I still have a long way to go.

Now I do freely admit that there are some who would like to see evolution taken out of the class rooms. I think this is a big mistake. This is why God gave us free will. He wants us to choose Him.

Respectfully
Seafox14

p.s.
I'm still new to posting and this is my first time trying to quote people.

I used the term fact in quotation marks for the purpose of indicating its ontologically probationary character in what I was writing. One might, depending on perspective, substitute a more neutral "event," "
actual occasion," or "emerging-into-thinghood."

Now the "proof" of any scientific theory actually revolves around several primary criteria.
1. Are there any significant "facts" that disprove it, or contradictory theories with equal scientific validity?
2. Does it "hang together" with other accepted facts and interpretations within the system of nature?
3. Can the supporting data be duplicated- - - is it verifiable in practice as well as in theory? This point is actually about what consitutes valid evidence, and whether the evidence ("facts") submitted conform to the rules of reason and scientific method.




One can only applaud tolerance and openness; both are signs of authenticity.
But no one can hear the truth unless they allow themselves to open-towards-letting-it-become-uncovered. The power of science has always been such an opening up toward finding truth, and letting the information speak for itself. To make sure they hear the truth (which I possess) is therefore not the same as to make sure everyone LISTENS for it (which may be out there in its silence).



I have argued elsewhere in this forum, that it is neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition for a Christian to believe in the Bible "with every ounce" which I take to mean some sort of literal interpretation of both of the Testaments. Once can genuinely accept a different viewpoint about the contents of the Bible, a viewpoint that is supported by both textual criticism and historical evidence, and still claim to follow Christ.

Regards,
John

It is completely pointless to argue about religion. There are only two types of people who I have ever seen turned from one religion to another. Those who don't have a religion and those who live a horrible life under their religion (which is actually more commonly caused by the government that they live under). It is hard to convince an American that is a Christian to believe otherwise, because he is most likely living a great life believing what he does. But, a hindu (or whatever) living in the slums in India, may sing a different tune about his religion, and very easily denounce it.

Also, I am tired of people thinking that anyone who believes in evolution is an atheist. In fact, Darwin claimed that he was not an atheist. He was a deist. This means that he believed that God created everything and then left it alone and will, or maybe won't come back. So it is possible to believe in creationism and evoulution. You would simply call yourself a deist.

Creationism can never be proven over evolution 100%, or vice verca. But, there are always things that cast doubt on one or the other. Here below is an example...... .......

The moon has a fraction of an inch of dust piled upon it. When we went to land on the moon, we were prepared for tens and possibly hundreds of feet of dust, because according to evolutionists and others who believe that the earth has existed for billions of years, this is how much there should have been. However, the fraction of an inch that was found is the amount that would have been accumulated over 6,000 years. This is about what year the Jewish calendar is in, and about how long creationists would say the earth has been around. Now, there are very radical creationists who would chalk this up as a major victory for creationism and thus completely disproving evolution. But, is it not possible that the moon was once, maybe 6,000 years ago, a part of the earth. And it decided (or the laws of physics made it) to break away from the earth and get caught in its gravitational field.

You see, there is evidence that supports both creationism and evolution. We will never, at least in our earthly lives, know for sure.

Hello Ryan_w_quick.

This did not start out as a discussion on religion. It started out asking why Evolution is being taught in schools as fact when it is still an as yet unproven theory. However religion got brought into the discussion so I gave my views on it.

I do agree that there are those on both sides that will never change their minds no matter how much "evidence" is presented. That is besides the point. From personal experience, evolution is taught as fact until someone challenges it in the classroom. Even then the point is admitted reluctantly and grudgingly.

My question to you is why are no other origin theories that have evidence to support them allowed to be taught in the classroom? To my knowledge ( and I'll be the first to admit that I don't know everything) only evolution is permitted. The few attempts to put notices in science text books that "state evolution is a theory and has not been proven yet. View the information with an open mind" have been met with lawsuits to get them removed (see evolution lawsuit).
Does this strike you as open minded or intolerant of other possibilities and ideas. At least with creationists you are less likely to end up with a lawsuit if they don't like what you have to say.


Respectfully
Seafox14

Well evolution is fact. Just not what everyone thinks it as.

Evolution on a micro scale is fact.

However, on the macro scale of actualy species evolution is still a theory.

Srry tht was a typo i meant to say my evidence does not come from my belifes or bible. Srry again.

Yeah sure whatever....Prove it with your stupid circle thinking of dating the rocks with the fossils and the fossils by the rocks...
Some fact..(not saying you think that way but thats how these scientists date stuff...)
Its not fact but a theory. And a sad one it is...

I'm talking micro! Obviosly you didn't read my entire post!

Microevolution! has been proven and observed! and is FACT

However the macroevolution theory has not been proven.

Yano, it may not actually be microevolution at all. What is being observed may in fact just be natural selection which is not evolution. Has a Rhodavirus(the common cold if I'm not murdering the spelling) been actually observed changing into HIV, or M13? Also, how much of these changes are due to human influence (i.e. deliberate genetic modification or mutation due to medicines used to fight the viruses)?

As to Macroevolution, if it did happen, there would be remains left of one species in the middle of becoming a new one. Bones have been found of what were considered to be pre-humans (non fossilized). DNA comparisons have shown no relations between humans and Neanderthal, Java Man, Austrilopithicus, and other so called Pre-humans. To date, no remains of any species in the process of evolving into another species have been found (i.e. having traits of both species. either skeletal remains or DNA traces)

There are many examples of mutation in humans and animals as well as viruses and bacteria that have made improvements in survivability (mostly from environmental conditions). However It has also been proven that those mutations disappear when the environmental causes of those mutations goes away unless the unmutated genetic code has been lost (which does not always happen). for example, the common roach. the use of pesticides can cause roaches that it does not kill to become immune to the pesticide. Most times the immunity is lost over time if that particular pesticide is not used for a time unless the genetic code that made the roach vulnerable to that pesticide has been lost instead of becoming a recessive trait. That is Natural Selection, not evolution. Most mutations are a result of a loss of genetic code or a change with no loss of genetic code.

So the case could be made that life on the Earth is devolving (or degenerating) not evolving. There has also never been one documented case (fossil or otherwise) of a series of smaller mutations adding up over time to turn one species into another one. It may be that fossils in transition between species may yet be found (I personally doubt that will happen). Only time will tell


I would like to ask that ALL who post refrain from ridiculing those they disagree with. Let's keep the debate civil and behave a gentlemen or ladies as the case may be.

Yano on behalf of those who support the creation account, I apologize for the name calling.

Respectfully
Seafox14

A woman is caught in China and is asked if she is a christian. If she answers yes they will shoot her on the spot if she answers no then she goes home. Now she looks at them man laughs and says yes i am a christian shoot me all you will do is destroy my heavenly body but my spirit will be with god this would be an honor. Now she is in heaven laughing at the man who killed her saying that he did as god wished and only showed the weakness of others. Killing the ones who donot belive the same as you only proves you are wrong in evey way. You got no way to prove that you are right so you kill them

Hope this helps

-steve
[/quote]

What load of rubbish! Nobody gets punished for being Christian, there's about 125 million of them in China. The only restriction is that the services must be in authorised locations, churches or halls, not in private property.
There's about 80 million muslims too, same deal for them.

I agree with the member who said all religions should be included in education on an elective basis. Isn't freedom of choice worth exemplifying?

Cowsgmad, I am as yourself a believer that Christ will one day return. But, you cannot accuse those that use rocks to prove fossils age and use fossils to prove rocks age of an incredulous argument. Many Christians infact use the Bible to prove that God exists, and use God to prove that the Bible exists. Is this not the same type of incredulous argument.

I think that with as fouled up as the Christian Religion has become, one day the church will somehow incorporate evolution into its accepted teachings. A quick history lesson, Gallileo was considered the second person to calculate that the earth revolved around the sun (Copernicus was the first). He was the first to publish these works and was accused of herecy by the Vatican. He was ordered before the Vatican and went on trial for his supposed herecy. He was convicted and was made to publicly recant his theories or be burned at the stake. He was sentenced to life imprisonment and his book joined the list of those banned by the Catholic church. Due to his advancing age, he was allowed to finish his term on house arrest in Florence. His theories were not reinvestigated and accepted as truth for many years, and a different pope later.

Moral of the story... The Catholic religion will do whatever it has to in order to draw more followers to Christianity. The only reason they eventually accepted Galileo's theory was to make the masses happy, and so those that believed in the theory could join Christianity. I think that in the future, the pope will declare (while sitting on his stupid throne) that God is ok with evolution, and that it is ok for Christians to believe in it.

Didn't the last pope already declare that evolution wasn't particularly ruled out by the bible? I'm not sure if i'm remembering that correctly though, i'll try to find a link and post back...

EDIT: Couldn't find it, so i dunno if i was imagining it or not....

In the Bible it says we were created. So evolution is not something the church is going to say is okay because it says in the Bible its not what happened.

Notice, according to the bible, god let the earth bring forth grass. It never says god created plants, but that he allowed the earth to bring the plants into existance...

Same as Genesis 1:24

So, taking both of these passages as the literal interpretation (which seems to be the best way to you, CGM), it's clear that god didn't directly create plants and animals. The bible says, literally, that the earth created plants and animals...

In the bible, Joshua commands the sun to stand still over Gibeon, implying that the sun is moving around the earth. So, since the bible says that the sun moves around the earth, it must be true. Do you believe this also?

My point is simply that this was once the belief of the Catholic church. They persecuted and accused those of herecy that first suggested the earth rotated around the sun (Galileo and Copernicus). They only later accepted this belief as ok when the evidence against earth as the center of the universe caused them to appear as fools.

Because Mankind, a long time ago, losted His link with Mother Nature, that's my humble opinion....ahahahahahah!

Ryan,
Joshua said for the sun to stand over Gibeon and the moon to stand in the valey of ajalon.

It does not imply that the sun moves around the earth. It says the sun stood still over the area where they were.

Do you beleive in it???

Guys. this is getting off topic. Anyone want to respond to want the link I posted anout the lawsuit?

Seafox14

Hi Seafox,

I read the 'lawsuit info' at the link you were kind enough to provide, and thank you.

Am a bit confused though - I wonder if the parents that insisted on these 'stickers' being added to each textbook, actually expect the teachers to read the stickers to the children before each lesson about Evolution? And explain what the words mean in relation to what they are about to learn each day? Hmmm.

Surely, we all want our children to grow up using their minds, learning and comprehending and making decisions - so being taught religion at home by those parents that choose to do so, while allowing open discussion and questions from inquisitive minds - and being taught Darwin's theory in schools and also allowing these same wonderful and inquisitive minds to ask questions - well, surely if given all info from both sides, it can only enrich a child's mind? (It makes me worry when a parent is fearful that exposure to other beliefs may undermine what they may so strongly believe in - children are not little carbon-copies of us - they are individual wee magical creatures who should grow up to be free-thinking tall magical creatures - gentle smile).

On a very personal level, I wanted our children to learn the science of Evolution in school - and our girls did. While we explained they were to always stand and be polite during 'The Lord's Prayer' which was recited each morning in general assembly, they did not have to participate. Just show respect for other's beliefs. There are so so many different beliefs - not all of them 'Christian' - and we wanted our girls to learn that there is no right or wrong - just differences. (But also that if they choose to recite the Lord's Prayer, that was fine with us too - in fact, although we are not 'believers' ourselves, we took our girls to many different denominations of Churches - always telling them honestly that if they choose to become Christians, that was fine with us as well since each person must decide for themselves).

I wish that all the different theories of 'life' were being taught at school - especially since there are so many children with so many different heritages and beliefs all attending the same schools.

Know I'm being a 'PollyAnna' here but I often imagine how wonderful it would be if the world could somehow start with a 'clean slate' and each parent throughout the world, no matter what their beliefs, give their children one of the greatest gifts possible - that of tolerance.

With kind thoughts,
Mara

Hi MaraM

The purpose of the sticker was to inform the students the evolution is an as yet unproven theory. They were put there for the students to read or ignore as they chose. It is suprising that the people how claim to be open minded on this subject tend to be very intolerant of other points of view.

Seafox14

That is not a personal accusation MaraM. Just a generalization

Seafox14

If one were to put a ticket on every textbook about every scientific theory that was "unproved" then either one would have to carry around a very large textbook or use very small tickets. In point of fact almost every scientific theory is strictly speaking, unproven. Why not have one for the Theory of Relativity?
I suspect there is a subtextual motive to select, out of all the scientific theories, just evolution for this special warning.
Cheers,
John

I

Hi jgweed.

Quite simply, it is because evolution is being used to push an anti Christian agenda. When I was in high school the science teachers were teaching evolution as a proven fact (ie "evolution proves that man came from apes that evolved") and not as a theory ( ie " the theory of evolution says that man evolved from apes"). BIG difference there. That IS my point. teach it as a theory if it is not proven.

Why pick evolution and not the theory of relativity? Simple. relativity Theory IS being taught as a theory. No one is trying to co-opt it to push an anti christian agenda. They kicked christianity out of the schools and replaced it the atheism. If you don't believe me, see what happens if you try to openly carry a bible in most high schools. There have been students suspended for it or had their bibles confiscated.

Here are some interesting links

religion in U.S. public schools

Teaching creation and evolution in schools

Creation and evolution in public education

This is what is being said when the other point of view is required ( must teach both sides of the argument)

Controversial step taken in rural Pennsylvania district

Kansas school board redefines science

Tolerant of other view points? I think not.

Respectfully
Seafox14

I just made this image.


Something like this should be put up on the board on day one of science class since evolution is a theory. I agree that they SHOULD NOT teach evolution as fact as it is a theory.

I agree. Even certain scientific laws are coming into question. Some scientists believe that gravity is not as it appears, that it is simply an illusion from a dimension of the universe that we cannot see. However, gravity and the practical uses that go along with it are very important in our daily lives, even if it is an illusion. So, just because evolution is a theory does not mean that it should be excluded.

It is one thing to argue that some teachers, primarily at a lower level in our public education, should be careful to make a distinction between "fact" and "theory," and that such fine distinctions involving the philosophy of science would be appropriate at that educational level, it is another to argue that evolution is being used to push an anti Christian agenda. This is to ague that there is a conspiracy directed against a particular sect of Christianity (many Christians do not have a problem resolving the apparent conflict between Christianity and Science (including evolution)), and THIS is the real reason that it is being taught "as fact," and it is to argue as well that there is but one Christian sect.

Next, to argue that "They kicked christianity out of the schools and replaced it the atheism' is to completely confuse the difference between education taking a non-religious and neutral stand, as taking an anti-Christian, or atheistic stance.
What they kicked out of schools was the attempt to Talibanise education for the religious purpose of a small sect, and to create an established church in the United States so that superstition, dogma and apologetics took the place of free inquiry and freedom of belief.

Regards,
John

This is one of the posts that I agree with you John.

The lower levels seem to teach it as a fact not all of the higher levels teach it as theroy though. I do not think it is aimed to being Anti-Christian. It can be offensive at times though but not on purpose. Most of us do not have a problem discusing it like you stated John.

I agree they did not have the intentions to kick christianity out and put atheism. It is a neutral stand for the most parts. They kicked it out to give people the chance to study religion on thier own and not have it forced on to the children.

Please correct me if i took it wrong.

Steve

I would submit to all the the removal of religion from schools is atheistic by nature. However I did make one error. Not all religion has been taken out of the schools.

They are teaching Islam in public schools
Islam studies required in California district

Teaching Johnny About Islam

America’s Secret Madrassas

Google has over 20 pages of links relating to Islam taught in public schools.
Bias much?

Respectfully
Seafox14

The good ship Mayflower would have been empty if it attempted to sail from a nation where religion was not politicised and made a matter of public scrutiny and inculcation of one preferred set of beliefs over the others and where religion did not interfere with the pursuit of truth, but encouraged it.

A revew of the history of the Christian religion seems to me to show that whenever it became emeshed in the world in a political way, that it did much harm and cheapened itself the more it strayed from (what I conceive to be) a private and individual relationship open to everyone as a free individual in spirit, to a secular and organized attempt to impose one set of dogmatic chains on everyone.

Render unto Darwin all that is Darwin's.......

Regards,
John

Actually jgweed, from my review of church history, it has been politicians and the power hungry seeking to use the influence of the church to their own ends that has resulted in mass suffering and a cheapening of the faith. The history of the catholic church is full of examples of people going into the priesthood to gain power they would never have otherwise. This is one of the reasons for all the teachings in the new testament about false teaching. I know that this is of little comfort or consolation to those that suffered at the hands of the false teachers and the people that they deceived into following them. That and the Church of England is one of the reasons for the First Amendment protection of religious expression. With that in mind, I would submit that the removal of religion from the schools is a violation of that First Amendment protection.

Now to get back on subject. How can schools be non-discriminatory as they claim to be if they only teach one side of the argument? That is not education, it is indoctrination, and is a massive disservice to our children. The teaching of evolution as fact and not discussing the other side of the coin (ie creationism) qualifies as indoctrination.

Seafox14

You're right seafox. I totally agree with you. But why stop with just teaching creationism?

There should also be some other changes in the curriculum. Along side chemistry, we should teach alchemy. Neurology shouldn't be taught without phrenology. Physics should be accompanied by magic, and astronomy shouldn't be taught over astrology. It's a travesty that these other truths are being kicked out of schools!



For the last time, science is not a conspiracy.

I never said that science is a conspiracy Heretic. I have said that there are some that have hijacked science to push an agenda that is anti-religion (not JUST anti-christian). A old standard roman tactic is being used. The romans, after conquering a country would set up roman schools and teach the children to be Romans. There are those in the education system that are using the same tactic when it comes to evolution.

Seafox14