(1.) Will these protests influence the laws of our country?

(2.) Should they have to go back and then return legally?

(3.) Or should they be allowed to stay for five years before they leave?


My perspective. Americans (legal Americans) do have a right to peacefully protest. But all of the protestors were not legal American citizens.

What would happen if an American dared to illegally enter another country, and when and if said country decided to crack down on illegal immigration through due process of law, by imposing more stringent immigration laws.
Then ... take to the streets in organized protests throughout the country in which they were residing illegally.
Waving the United States Flag, cutting off major freeways, etc. What would be the outcome of that?
Food for thought....

There are legal immigrants here in America. That is all well and good. I welcome them. But to expect to be able to break the law and then form protests across the country, whenever they are being called on for what they have done to break the law, some may look upon as ludicrous.


All protestors were not peaceful eiether, for instance.





Why was this even allowed in the first place?

Yeah, i never understood how they can protest since they're ILLEGAL aliens, and it's ILLEGAL to cross the border without the proper paperwork... It'd be like trying to protest that people who kill other people shouldn't be arrested...

Instead of the gov't saying "Illegally coming to this country should be punished", we've basically been saying "It should be frowned upon"....

Not exactly sure where i stand on the issue. I know that it should be illegal, but placing stricter enforcements won't really end everything. If people want to get in (or out) of a place, there's little you can do to ultimately end it.

Yes Scarlett this is America and not France. It seems that some have all been “dumbed down” with this idea that socialism is the answer to all of our problems. Throw in a little religion and see what you get. Add politics and this hamburger won’t fly without the help of the MSM and Hollywood.



I agree HM, but at some point we have to try don’t we? If we were to rule out the political and religious stuff, would that give US a better chance? When a nation comes to the point where socialism replaces common sense, it is in deep DooDoo. If you have no faith in your country, all is lost. Zilch, DoDa and goodbye.
At some point we need to do something besides complain about the current state of affairs and do something.
But then again, I also wonder if we can really do anything about it now anyhow. It may be to late in the game.
God and Country does not equate to Religion and Government. That’s my story an I’m sticking with it.

Well I think they should send them back. If we were to try it like scarlet said we would be sent back. If the US made it harder to get through maybe many would think twice before coming over illegally.

Im not against anybody here. We have good friends that are mexicans and they came here legally as far as I know. They are good citizens and work hard just like us. But those who flood the USA and earn and do not do taxes just cost america money.

I agree. If they are legally in this country, then I have no problem with immigrants. But I see no problem with the government trying to crack down on illegal immigration. If they want to stay here, they need to do it the right way...protesting because the government is trying to enforce the law makes no sense.

And if we would stop providing FREE taxpayer provided social programs and other services to these ILLEGAL immigrants, the problem would partially resolve itself.

(1.) Will these protests influence the laws of our country?

I can only hope so and for the better in a stricter sense. As the laws we have now are almost ineffective, so easy to get around. Can't see a mass of illegals,waving the wrong flag and demanding more not opening the eyes of Congress. If you were to have behaved in this manner in Mexico....well you'd probably already be jailed, then praying someone realizes your missing at home and knows you were there.

(2.) Should they have to go back and then return legally?

Absolutly !! Why should they be allowed to 'cut in line' ahead of all those who have been waiting to be proper. Undocumented people can be carrying diseases (and other things) that we have eliminated here.

(3.) Or should they be allowed to stay for five years before they leave?

NO. No offense meant but kind of a silly question as they don't leave any way. Perhaps should have asked can they stay 5 more.

boopme
I asked the third one because it has been mentioned as one solution.
Not what I'd pick that one I can assure you.
I agree with you and everyone else here.

Do you know that in the Hispanic schools in L.A. they were announcing the protests on the public address system? Public schools mind you.
That just dont sit right with me.

Excuse me, they are not even US citizens. "Prepared to break the law? "Civil acts of disobedience"?
The arrogance shown is beginning to frighten, and concern me.
Protests? I think not, more along the lines of riots! These riots were Nation wide!
Police were taken away from their duties in order to attempt to gain control of the mobs.
Busses were brought in to round them up.
Tax payer money, the security of our U.S. cities all were at risk!







It has been said by a protestor in Chicago
that this may be the start of an immigration civil rights movement.
Again arrogance is the word. How can one even possibly form the idea that
they can be allowed to protest their civil rights, when indeed they are not citizens.
Illegal aliens do not, and should not have the rights of United States citizens!


We are being taken down from within! Mark my word!

The discussion thus far does not recognize that these illegal immigrants are all potential voters for a certain political party that wants to regain its power. The MSM has joined them in this cause. Anyone or any party which takes enforcement seriously will be portrayed as anti-immigrant, racist and suffer the loss of a growing voting block. Thus, I suspect many political leaders will back down despite the fact that the majority of the American people want strict border enforcement.

And what happens to state budgets when twelve million illegal aliens become eligible for Medicaid, food stamps, welfare, educational and other tax payer funded benefits?

The Medicaid program alone has already begun to devour state budgets. "Medicaid," former Virginia Governor Mark Warner told the National Governors Association last July, "could actually bankrupt every state in the country before 2020 unless we can get a handle on it."

BTW, heres some more interesting news:

Houston High School Principal flies Mexican Flag at School
Mexican flag flies over community in Florida
Hispanic Groups Plan U.S. Worker Strike
Marchers say gringos, not illegals, have to go

I know, Scarlett,I was being as bit sarcastic. I don't like it when people spit in my face or dump on my country either. I have no problem with legal immigration. In fact I know first hand of it. It takes years to get it right. I married a German girl. It took seven years to get her here legally. Many trips to the consulate. Well worth it I may add. So,I don't feel amnesty or dropping the proceedure should be changed. Not because I had to do it. But because I met so many people waiting for the rest of their families. Plus if we are keeping these people in line,what happens to them if we allow all of these to jump in front. Do they wait longer because of those who sneak in or overstay their visas. Well ,that will just sell an awful lot more one way tickets here. We cannot handle the burden now.
These protests are arrogance and disrespect for our country as a whole.
I agree with the comment on a voting 'commodity' as they are told vote for this person. Doing so will get you free this and that. I wish I'd kept the photo my cousin sent me from Miami airport. It said "Mayor Musto,Welcomes you to Union City, NJ." This city is a mess as many border towns are,as it is overrun with illegals. All city services are taxed to the max. Perhaps the word Taxed is inappropriate as they're not contributing to the tax base. Only a burden on it with multiple accounts drawing on it. But he was buying votes and these people were being misled anyway. I can tell you many many instances of how they are milking the US that I have seen. I guess I am getting off topic. Everyone cannot have their way. There needs to be serious tightening of the reins. Or I'll be putting the sign up at the airport that says...Will the last American out, please take down the flag !

Attempting to assume occupation???



A socialist stance???



A threat of war???

Preposterous? Am I going over board? Exaggerating?
Think about it.......

We are being taken down from the inside!

We are being taken down from the inside!

In many ways

I do agree with this. WE all should be angry over this and tell our representatives so. I've made this comment myself in another post (just don't remember which).

Telling your reps probably will have little effect.

The political ramifications of all this are profound.

If conservatives appear too strict and anti-immigrant they will loose all the gains they have made in garnishing the Hispanic vote. If they appear too weak they will loose base support from the majority of the American people. Catch 22.

Liberals, on the other hand, do not have to do anything but sit back and watch or criticize. Although the majority of them want full amnesty the MSM will not report that. Many will speak out that conservatives are racist and taking extreme anti-immigrant measures which will be reported by the press. These attacks along with attacks from a bias media will be the headlines immigrants (and the less informed) read and believe. This has been the course of almost all news reporting since the protesting began.

Hispanics are now the largest minority in the U.S. and still growing. If the Hispanic voting block moves into the Democrat's column along with their existing African-American base, the sheer numbers will give them the ability to win almost any major election for generations to come.

Conservatives will become a minority party and probably never recover. Liberals will be back in power and able to control their agenda for a brave new world. America will become a socialist welfare state just like its European counterparts.

Politics is similar to a chess game where you are always looking several steps ahead, anticipating how your opponent will attack. Your reps are keenly aware of the political ramifications I have just outlined but they are still unsure how to proceed.

Choices:
Anger the base and loose an election or two in the short term.
Anger the Hispanic community and loose all major elections in the long term.

Question: Which choice would you rather live with?

Yea that has got some mention...i dont think there are too many irish involved in the protests though...too busy working or drinking...

America is not the only country in the world with this problem...In ireland if you are from Nigeria you can sneak in, claim assylum..get free lodgings free tv, cable work illeagly pay no tax...we pay for their kids...bla bla bla...same ol story..its the price we pay for a free open society...america has always had this problem..its kinda new to us but its the price we pay for success. I welcome people who come to this country from eastern europe and china/india to work because thats what they do...WORK...i have a number of friends from Nigeria, who work hard but for every 1 that works hard 50 claim social benefits..

In the News:
Mexican flag raised at AZ school, then burned
US Flag turned upside down & flown under Mexican Flag

Mexico's Fox Won't Stop Flow of Migrants
Fox: U.S. Will 'Beg' for Mexican Workers

Good read here:
Educating Citizens: Multiculturalism

Photo Summary from the Great March posted with pride from MexicanMovement.org

Theoretically, illegal immigrants can't (or certainly shouldn't be allowed to) vote. I would think those immigrants who jumped through all the proper hoops to be legal would be the last to endorse legislation that would allow those who 'cheated' and entered to country illegally to remain here under any kind of amnisty.

So who are these people demonstating? Are most of them illegals? If so, why are we not arresting them?

There is one major political party which refuses to prevent voter fraud by opposing any legal attempts that require voters to show identification prior to entering the voting booth. This in turn enables many illegals (as well as felons) to vote for them. Any effort to prevent fraud by placing requirements of identification is labeled racist and portrayed as such by a bias MSM.

They are a combination of illegal and legal immigrants, students, hispanic radio personalities, liberal activists and latinos who claim Americans are occupying their land. Just look at some of the signs they carried in the photo summary link I posted above.

Hello to you all:


I am a legal immigrant who has been living in the USA since 1990: my official 'tittle' is 'legal resident alien'.

I did not come to this country out of economical necessity but because I was in love.
My wife and I are the proud parents of a little boy who happens to be both American and French.

Here are a few remarks.

First of all, I do not condone violence or vandalism, and taking to the streets is rarely efficient in convincing anybody of even listening to your point of view (unless you are a majority).
It is particularly stupid when one's presence is illegal. This is another demonstration (no pun intended) that lacking legal status, along with poverty, fosters crime.

This being said, illegal immigration is here (and in France, Germany, England, etc.) to stay for the foreseeable future mostly for two reasons:

1) If an individual can make 10, 100, 1000 times more money than in her/his native country somewhere else to support themselves and their loved ones, that individual will expatriate herself/himself.
And if she/he is not lucky enough to be one of the happy few who can do so legally, illegal immigrant she/he will be.
When (in the 40th millenium?) the current huge income disparities have vanished, the much smaller immigration (and emigration) will be politically or family motivated.

2) We hear often that illegal immigrants take away jobs from US citizens and legal residents, and that wages would be higher without illegal workers.
This is a fallacy, as the average US citizen and legal resident would not touch 99% of illegal immigrants' jobs and a sizable portion of the US economy relies on this underground work force, thus generating 'legal' work for everybody else.

So, a wise policy for all rich nations is to help raise quickly the standard of living of the countries where the majority of their immigrants come from, and simultaneously give some legal status to those who cross the borders over and over again.

Finally, I would like to remind quietman7 that only US citizens can vote and that a proof of citizenship is required to do so at registration time (not in the voting booth).
As far as pandering to immigrants, the only 'political outreach' mailings I ever received came respectively from the National Rifle Association and the Republican Party, so things are not as simple and clear cut as they seem.


May you all stay happy and virus and spyware-free in America the Beautiful!

Best from Rattila

I was a "Pole Watch" volunteer in the '90s here in Baton Rouge. I saw firdt hand what it takes to register to vote, which is not much. Social Security card and a driver licence or state ID card and you are registered. If you have not been arrested and no one challenges your ID you, in theory, would never get caught.
While your point is valid, it ignores the realilty that the people who vote illegally are already illegal and the benifit of their vote out weights the penlity the may or may not incur.
When I was a Sheriff's Deputy I had to release several undocumented aliens simply because INS or Boader would not or could not respond to my request.

"The problem is the imates are running the prison." unknown Correction's Officer

Hello Rattila and let me extend a warm welcome to the US.
You are quite correct about this. My comments were meant to address the increasing evidence of fraud at the voting booth. If someone shows up at the polls to vote, but does not provide any ID how does one confirm this is the same individual matching the name on the registration list.

If someone shows up to vote and is not on the registration list, should they still be allowed to vote?

When your eligible to vote, do you want it to count or do you want it negated by someone who is not entitled to vote?

This is the problem that we have been facing in increasing numbers since the last two presidential elections. And I'm not blaming this all on illegal immigrants because there is ample proof of US citizens engaging in this sort of fraudulent activity.

There should be a system in place that insures fairness to all. Measures taken to do that should be encouraged rather than considered racist. I don't think that showing identification prior to actually voting is unreasonable or too much to ask but I am certainly open to other alternatives that make the process fair to all.

I was a law enforcement officer in Florida where I too had to release undocumented aliens because INS or Boader would not or could not respond to my request. In addition, I participated in contested election recounts prone with fraud that could have been avoideded by the simple task of asking the voter to show an ID prior to voting. I just don't understand why there are so many opposed to this other than motive to permit the fraud to continue.

Here in Wisconsin it's easier than that to register. All you need to do is show up at the polls with something that shows you live at an addresses within the district.

Show up with a drivers license (you DO NOT have to be a US citizen to get a Wisconsin drivers license) or an electric bill with your name and address on it (you do not have to prove it is actually your name) and you can register. No drivers license or utility bill? No problem, vote a provisional ballot anyway and they will check later that you live in the district (or maybe they will be too busy to check). There is nowhere in the process that checks to be sure you are a US citizen.

Prove who you are when you vote? No, our esteemed governor has veto'd all attempts to require a voter present ID at the polls.

Hi you all:

Thank you for your warm welcome, qietman7.

I was not aware that it was so easy to vote without being a citizen: being a law-abiding resident, I innocently assumed that some checking was done,
so I stand corrected.

I know that I was called for jury duty twice already and had to point out to the courts that only citizens could be jurors, even though
I would not have minded being a juror and would have learned from the experience.

I do not mean to boast about the French electoral system, but here is how it works over there:

- For each voting district, a master list of French citizens eligible to vote is continuously maintained
and updated to account for those who passed away, those who reached voting age,
those who have been stripped of their voting rights, and those who have regained their voting rights.
The district lists are cross-checked so that if a voter moves to a new address, she/he is stricken
from her/his former voting district list before being added to his/her current one.

- As voting is not compulsory, there is a registering period before each election during which
any voter can ask to vote.
After checking eligibility, she/he receives a voting card valid only for that particular election:
on it are her/his name and the location of the voting booth.

- On voting day, the voter presents her/his voting card and National ID Card and is allowed to vote if registered for that particular election.
Once her/his ballot is cast, her/his name is stricken from the particular election's list.

The national ID card is issued only to French citizens, resident aliens receive another form of ID.

Nobody is allowed to vote who does not present both cards.

While not 100% fraud-proof, this system is quite efficient in that:

1) it has two-layers of identification

2) one of them is renewed at each election, allowing for scrutiny

Item 1) is not applicable in the US, as there is no compulsory universal ID for US citizens
(there is for legal immigrants: the famous 'green card').

But item 2) could help, and be part of the 'get out the vote' of each party, thus not burdening the federal and states treasuries.
Here is how it could work: when encouraging citizens to vote, the Republicans, Democrats, or others could offer to the voters
to mail them their voting card for that particular election, along with any political pamphlets and political literature.
This card would then be required to cast a ballot.

What do you think?

Best from Rattila

Liberals at all government levels have aggressively courted the illegal alien vote for years. Probably the most egregious example was the taxpayer-funded Citizenship USA program under the Clinton-Gore administration, which abandoned criminal background checks to naturalize 1.3 million immigrants including scores of criminal alien felons in time for the 1996 elections.

The Columbus Dispatch in Ohio reported that illegal alien Nuradin Abdi – the suspected shopping mall bomb plotter from Somalia – was registered to vote in Ohio by the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, a left-wing activist group. Also on the Ohio voting rolls: convicted al-Qaida agent Iyman Faris, who planned to sabotage the Brooklyn Bridge and had entered the country fraudulently from Pakistan on a student visa. In Florida, indicted terror suspect Sami Al-Arian illegally cast his ballot in a Tampa referendum in 1994 while his citizenship application was pending.

Some of this election fraud is possible because it is be built into the system by design. The "Motor Voter Law," signed into law by President Clinton, imposed fraud-friendly rules on the states by requiring driver's license bureaus to register anyone applying for licenses, to offer mail-in registration with no identification needed, and to forbid government workers to challenge new registrants, while making it difficult to purge those voters who died or moved.

In 2001, the voter rolls in many American cities included more names than the U.S. Census listed as the total number of residents over age eighteen. Philadelphia's voter rolls jumped 24 percent since 1995 at the same time that the city's population had declined by 13 percent. CBS reported in 1999 that it found people in California using mail-in forms to register fictitious people, or pets, and then obtaining absentee ballots in their names. By this means the illegal alien who assassinated the Mexican presidential candidate Luis Donaldo Colosio was registered to vote in San Pedro, California twice. There were enough reports of voter fraud in the 2004 for me to write a book.

John Fund, author of Stealing Elections: How Voter Fraud Threatens Ours Democracy wrote:
.

After the 2000 election, angry liberal partisans managed to undermine voter confidence in our election system to such an extent that the State Department asked the Europeans to monitor the 2004 election for fairness. Activists groups, with backing from liberal politicians, have managed to convince many voters that US elections are not fair because the voting machines have suddenly become too complicated for the elderly and minorities to use while they continue to forcefully oppose basic ID requirements at the polls.

Voters, regardless of party affiliation, should ask themselves "Why are they doing this"?

What about voting machines that don't have paper trails; machines that are serviced and operated by private companies of all things?? What a scary idea!

Though perhaps misguided, I think one of the reasons voter registration has gotten easier is an attempt to increase voter turn-out. At least, that was the argument for the switch to mail-in ballots in my state of Oregon.

Personally, I like the idea mentioned by Rattila of registration for each major vote. It would be good to shake some of the apathy out of people, get them involved. Perhaps the registration process should also include a test to demonstrate basic knowledge and understanding of the measures on the ballot.

I also like the idea of a national holiday for presidential elections. It would be great if we all took a day off not only to take the time to make the best votes we can, but also to stop for a moment and appreciate our democracy.

Hi You All:

Maybe I am off topic here (and tell me if you think so), but in all the free democracies in the world, there is voting fraud, in Europe as well as in the US.

It seems to me that, while it is worthwile politically and philosophically to question the motives of one faction or the other in breaking electoral law, thought should be given to improving the system as well.
Especially for a nation which is the first modern democracy, both historically and as a world power, and a nation wishing to spread its values of Liberty and Fairness under the law.

The big hurdle is two-fold: on one hand American citizens understandably refuse any form of universal national identification, on the other hand a majority is reluctant to spend more public funds on elections and electoral law enforcement.

That is why I was mentioning this temporary voting card scheme in my previous post, and why I suggested having the Democrats, Republican and others shoulder the costs.

One of the other way to implement this suggestion, in a more secure way and at very little cost, is through the Internal Revenue Service:

- Every year everybody has to file a tax return, whether paying taxes or not.
- Add two boxes to check on the form, the first labelled 'Check if you are a US Citizen',
the second labelled 'Check if you wish to vote in the upcoming year'.
- Mail to the filer a voting card valid for that year if both boxes are checked.

Costs incured to implement: printing of voting cards.

Processing and mailing costs already exist, enforcement costs for false declaration already exist, etc.

Best to all from Rattila

I would like to inform you all, before the paranoia gets to you all, that stats show that its a certain upper and middle america that controls the vote, lower classes and less educated tend not to vote in great numbers.

Remember of course, if people are willng to come and work in your country and not claim social benefits i think they should receive some type of welcome..remember where all Americans came from, its not long since all americans were new to the continent.

This morning's Washington Times reports that immigration rights organizers today will call for a nationwide boycott of work, school and shopping on May 1 to protest congressional efforts to clamp down on illegal aliens as part of pending immigration-reform legislation.

The paper also reports that last week's massive pro-illegal immigrant demonstration in Los Angeles was organized by International A.N.S.W.E.R., a Communist organization and a front for the Workers World Party. The Workers World Party is one of the last Stalinist organizations in the world; it supported Stalin's invasion of Hungary in 1956 and more recently, WWP and ANSWER have supported dictators like Saddam Hussein and North Korea's Kim Il Jong.
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20060404-122847-7263r.htm

Ever wonder why communist organizations (along with elitists and the MSM) support illegal immigration and no restrictions on voting?

Rich Lowry reports.

If they go through the proper procedure and become a legal American citizen,
I have no problem with that. I welcome them.

Being an illegal means just that though, illegal. And the topic of this debate is the "illegal" immigrants.
Who are breaking the law by being here. And then rioting in our streets, in cities across the country,
protesting the fact that they may finally be called on for breaking the law.

This level of arrogance shown astounds me! They are becoming desperate and they
are arrogant. That is a deadly combination.
Desperate times (often) call for desperate measures.
They felt as if the were being pinned up against the wall.
So what is their next move?


The "illegal" immigrants that live and work here, do claim social benefits,
their children go to public schools, and they do not pay taxes.
So they do in fact garner tax funded benefits, and do nothing to contribute to the system.

The Mexican government is providing its citizens with brochures on
how to make the illegal border crossing safely. I can see why they would do this.
We pay for the health and welfare of Mexican citizens. Meanwhile Mexican migrants
send money home to the tune of $20 billion a year. Taxes are not being paid
on this money earned. So they are not feeding the system that they are using.
They are taking advantage of it instead.

Something is definantly wrong with this picture!




Yes and "we" paid taxes and obeyed the law or faced the consquenences.

Why any legal Mexican immigrant would support the protests that have been going on lately is beyond me.

They have to pay taxes and the illegals dont. Oh...
pardon me they have illegal family members.
The US Government should not dare pass a law that may result in the splitting up of a family.
I mean after all they should not be held accountable for thier breaking the law.
Shame on the US for even giving it any thought. Shame Shame
I suppose it is just fine and dandy when an American breaks the law and the family is
seperated when the law breaking family member is sent to jail, that's different isn't it. NOT!
And if "they" feel free to break on law, how many more will they break? Or have already broken.
Comon... we are not just speaking of sweet little families and upstanding individuals here.
They do not go through the proper channels and register, so there is no way of telling what they are like.
Murderers, drug dealers, etc........

Besides...they have gone a step further.
As quietman7 posted on the first page of this debate.




So... as I have said before and will continue to say...
Our country is being taken down, from the inside out!
These activities are an invasion of our country.
They have said and done everything besides
actually coming out and declaring War!



Coincidence? I think not!
It would not suprize me at all if there were Al Queda and even Hamas cells among the protesters (rioters).

If indeed the tables were turned.....
Click on link in quote below, to learn more of "Mexico's Glass House"

So, what do you propose to do? Declare war on Mexico?

And if you win that one, then what? War on the next immigrants'wave homeland?

I do not condone the behavior of these foreigners: they are behaving very badly, as all desperate people will do.

Faced with that kind of situation, either you enforce with a capital E, wich means you commit the human resources (tax increase) and budget (tax increase) to do a thorough job and send all theses folks back to where they came from while fortifying your borders to a level not seen since the dark ages.

Or you face the reality of a smaller planet, where not only money and corporations, but also [/u]people[/b][u], move more freely, and you try to alleviate what makes these folks want to 'invade' your country in the first place, and you try to prevent electoral fraud.

You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

Best from Rattila

Not once did that cross my mind. But it has crossed theirs I can assure you.


N/A



Agreed up to a point. Behaving very badly??

Illegally is the correct term. Civil disobedience by non American citizens.
Yes I admit that was a contridiction in terms. Though since they are illegals and they are excercising
the right to protest, (albeit riot) as if they are citizens........
Who do not, and should not be allowed any rights that an American citizen has.

Oh and of course most criminals do feel desperate. Part and parcel of thier lives as they live them.



Right on target! They are draining our system already!
It would be as simple as moving the apples from one basket to another.


Once again I invite you to peruse a quote of quiteman7's




Just move the dang apples. lol It is not that hard to understand.
From the basket that does not provide a long term solution, to one that does.




Alleviate what makes these folks want to invade our country in the first place??
I will NOT give up my way of life as a free American citizen and all that comes with it, in order to prevent
folks (illegal immigrants) from the desire to invade this country.
Why should I want to live in a third world country, or what is a communist or socialist one?

First things first. Build the dam, then do research and take steps on how to
prevent the flood from continuing and/or from re-occuring.




I just want my cake, thank you.

I leave you with this...disturbing sight.



Edit: Respect for the Flag

The Flag Code, a national guideline on ways in which the flag is to be respected, states that no disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America. Specific ways, in which the flag should not be used, according to the code, are:

*The flag should not be dipped to any person or thing, and can be flown upside down only as a distress signal.

The first shots have been fired and it was not the US.

http://www.americanfreepress.net/06_01_02/..._soldiers_.html

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11226144/

Mutually beneficial (instead of parasitic) trade agreements and education can help here. Seems far cheaper than walls and barbed wire; and ultimately creates better relations rather than increased division. However, we can't even get legislators who are strong enough to make laws that keep corporations from exploiting our own public (ie, the drug industry), let alone helping another country become more self-sufficient.

On a side note, this debate illustrates the difference between those who try to solve problems by isolating, understanding, and addressing the roots of a problem; and those who focus only on fighting the symptoms.

They are illegal.

il·le·gal
adjective

Prohibited by law.

noun

An illegal immigrant.

Does this mean I can go out tommorow and break any law I so choose?
I am an American citizen. And I can not do such.
So NIETHER should they be able to.

A while back on one of my other discussion sites, I spoke my mind and was ridiculed for it.
I have not posted to much on this site, but once again I think I need to express my opinion on this immigration matter.
First off, ever notice how in most conversation on the news when this subject comes up, the forces for immigration rights alway's omit the word"illegal" in front of the word immigrant?
They call them undocumented, willing workers and what all, but never illegal, which is what they are.
Now, some of you may agree with me, some not, while others may say it is too radical or"over the top".
I have a couple of things I would do concerning this illegal immigration problem.
First, I would call up the national guard to back up the border patrol.
Second, I would place large billboards every 300 yards , facing the mexican border, written in spanish in bold red letters, "If you enter this country illegally, you will be shot on the spot and go home in a body bag, no exceptions!"
Third, as for those here already, that would be handled in two ways.
One would be to make and enforce with strict sentencing, laws dictating jail time and large fines for hiring illegals , with no appeals.
That in itself would create an exodus back to the southern borders.
No work, no money, no reason to stay.
Next would be a massive undertaking to round up those who remain.
Most politicians say it can't be down.
Too that I say horse sh**.
During WWII, the numbers may be different, but the cause was the same.
This country rounded up all people of Japanese decent.
At the time it too was said, "It can't be done", but it was.
The fact is, this is a war, and war is never decent or politically correct.
Wars are fought with weapons, and we need to bring forth those weapons, be it the national guard, strict hiring laws or billboards written in spanish.
This problem is not going to go away unless we take a stand and address it head-on.
Congress as usual has their heads up their as**s.
Guest worker programs are amnesty in different clothes.
If it walks like as duck, quacks lie a duck, you can bet your sweet a** it is a duck.
If I had to say one thing that is most disturbing to me in regard to this immigration thing it is, these illegal bast**ds waving the mexican flag in their illegal demonstrations all over this country.
Bob.

Makes sense


Shouldn't we exhaust all other possible solutions before turning to murder and killing? Besides, that would mean hundreds of thousands/millions of dollars for the material and people to handle weapons. Then there's always the idea that everyone charged with destroying crossers will be paid off or will be down-right dishonest...

Also, how many people in the us would actually go for an idea like that? In addition, the us has a bad enough reputation as it is, how would we look if we automatically killed anyone who set foot in our territory without a piece of paper?


Makes sense, except what if the employers are fooled into thinking that the person is there legally? There's not much employers can do to guarantee the citizenship before they're crossing some privacy boundaries. Would they still be held responsible if they were not aware of their employees' illegal status?


But weren't those japanese registered citizens to the government? Meaning they had a residence and location on record, correct? How hard is it to find something when you have the coordinates and directions? And i seriously doubt every single one of them was found...


Or a very advanced robot mimicking the water fowl.

Now believe me, i am in no way advocating that illegal immigrants have the right to be in this country, i just think (as you said earlier) that your methods are a little radical and implausible.

Now..... what about those damn illegal CANADIAN immigrants?!?!

*goes back to observing*

"Makes sense, except what if the employers are fooled into thinking that the person is there legally? There's not much employers can do to guarantee the citizenship before they're crossing some privacy boundaries. Would they still be held responsible if they were not aware of their employees' illegal status?"

To answer your question, I own a property management company here in Los Angeles.
For three years now, one of my requirements for perspective tenants is that they provide legal proof that they are in this country legally.
I do not accept ss cards or driver's license as proof.
I need to have a copy of a birth certificate issued by a city in the USA, or a current permenent resident, or alien registration card which can be varified, that shows you are legally here.
I have two associates in the Los Angeles area, one who works at the mexican consulate office, and the other works in the office of immigration so, getting correct varification is not a problem.
With very little effort, employers can validate any documentation provided by a perspective employee.
Even if I did not have contacts in the right places, I could get any documentation varified.
If it has to do with immigration, one only needs to contact the ins of local consulate office.
Bob.

Now, as for the neighbors to the north, and those from any other country entering illegally, The same applies.
In this world, we are not much liked as it is, so taking the bull by the horns and shooting these illegals if necessary isn't going to make them like us any less.
The round-up would not be easy nor would it be without recourse.
As stated in the original post I made, this is war, and war is never pretty.
We need to send a strong message through out the world.
You are welcome in our country as long as you get here in a legal and forthright way.
The one big myth is that illegals do the work americans won't.
That is the biggest crock I have ever heard.
Americans will do any kind of work, they just want to be paid a fair wage to do it.
The only reason illegals are able to work in this country is because they will work for practically nothing.
Presi Bush gets up and states These immigrant workers(again, the intentional omission of the word illegal) are willing to do work Americans won't do is counter productive to those Americans who do want and need a job.
Pay an American worker a livable, decent wage, and they will shovel sh** with the best of them.
One of the biggest problems lies with the employers.
They want the workers who will work for low wages.
I think they are just as guilty as those entering the country illegally and stealing all the jobs from Americans.
Bob.

Scarlett,With regards to what you said,

I will admit it is obviously something you have spent alot of time thinking about and in principle i would certailnl agree, i havnt given it as much thought as yourself.

One thing is for damm sure, if there is a communist or a socialist which for me is like "diet communism" no good will come out of it as far as im concerned they will "wreck" any country. Im still waiting to see an example of where that system even mildlyworks.

So in responce to you i say touche

Hello everybody:

Just a thought for the advocates of 'shoot any varmint trying to sneak under or over the fence', pretending this could be done without spending hundreds of time more than what illegal immigration supposedly costs US taxpayers.

Which nations have - or had in the recent past - the strongest immigration enforcement and border security?

Current: North Corea, China, Cuba.

Recent past: USSR, Albania, Nazi Germany.

This lists just a few of them: I defy you to find a nation with such a border policy that would have a way of life even remotely similar to the American way of life so dear to us - without mentioning the disastrous economic consequences of such a policy.

This is not a coincidence.

True democracies are 'soft' by their very nature: they tend to educate and convince through debate, trade, and by their example rather than coerce.
It does not mean that democracies do not have laws and do not enforce them.
It means that beyond a certain level of population control, when their focus turns mostly to enforcement, they loose their identity and become totalitarian.
I really hope this is not the wish of a majority of US citizens.

Best from Rattila

It cost our economy billion ever year reguardless.



Full Story




Full Story

Does that $20 billion in the first article include the money sent home by LEGAL immigrants? I read through the article and i see nothing that they're speaking exclusively about the money sent home by illegal immigrants.... (and it's not like we aren't uselessly throwing away money anyway....)

Anyway, is it the immigrants' fault that we're GIVING them $20 billion to send home? I see the money as less of an issue against illegals and more of an issue against those that pay illegals for labor. Since they get a lot less minimum wage to do the same jobs, that just means that they have to work a hell of a lot more hours to acquire that amount of money...

Another thing... why did this become such a big deal all of a sudden? If this has been going on for years and years, what brought it to the forefront at this time period? If we were really so hell-bent on getting rid of illegal immigrants, shouldn't we have paid more attention when they first started to cross, or when the crossing began to get out of hand?

And acklan, you might want to fix the first link in your post. I'm getting a link to "http://%5dhttp//www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11100899/"

"Another thing... why did this become such a big deal all of a sudden? If this has been going on for years and years, what brought it to the forefront at this time period? If we were really so hell-bent on getting rid of illegal immigrants, shouldn't we have paid more attention when they first started to cross, or when the crossing began to get out of hand?"

It seemed to get out of hand in the 80's right after Ronald Reagan gave amnisty to millions already here.
All that did was open the flood gates so millions more could come here.
Bob.

It did not become a big deal until members of Congress finally took the initiative to do something about it. The reason they did was because more and more US citizens have started complaining about the lack of enforcement and have voiced their dissatisfaction with political representatives.

In the news today: Non-Citizens Expected to Get Voting Rights in NYC

I'm not sure I will look into it. If it legal or illegal it is still money than is not being spent in the US.


I work with dozen of legal Mexicans, and no one GIVE them anything. They work harder that most. And contrary to popular belief, they make more than sub-minimum wage. The business owners that I refer to pays between $8 and $10 an hour to the Mexicans. He would gladly pay the same to Americans that would go the work. He can't find Americans to put in a 60 hour week for $700. I personal know 7 businesses that hire legal Mexicans and none of them pay less than $7\hr. My friend with the Lawn service even provides room and board. You have no idea what kind of hoop the State Department makes you jump thru to import worker for 9 months. Then it starts all over again.
I am with you. Hammer the employers who are caught working illegals. Ban them from holding a business licence for 1 year.

In the '70 it was a big deal here. Then it became a political football and no one want to alienate the hispanic vote. If it were not for two dozen 24 r News channels, the terror attacks (starting with the first Trade Center Bombing in '93), and cut throat politics it still would be on the back burner. I am all for pulling our troops out and brining them home and militerizing the north and south boarders of this Country.
I have no problem with legal workers and tourist, and I have not heard any one say "shut the boarder down". I have heard, and I agree, make them come in legally. Throw up a 3 tier fence and man the check points. If the meet the legal requirements good if not turn them around. To do other wise endangers our Country and actually is a slap in the face of the 10's of thousands of that abide by our laws and enter our country each year.
This is the type people that pose a threat to our security. This is what needs to be stopped.

Thank you. I took care of it.

The US has been illegaly invading other countries, in one way or another, forever.

Now you guys are finally waking up to the fact that you're also being invaded. But now it's too late to stop it.
Hey, maybe you'll get to know how American natives felt when the Europeans started to take over their country.
It looks to me like the natives are just taking their land back. You better get used to it. You're outnumbered.

I am sympathetic towards the true Native Americans.
But those of this movement are off base.

Who do you think is next?




Oh and was not Canada colonized by Europeans as well?
The treatment of the Native Peoples of Canada (before it was Canada) was no different.

And the United states is not alone in the invasion arena.

I suppose the Mexicans learned Spanish from the Mayans? And President Vicente Fox looks like he would be at home on the Mediterranean Sea isle of Crete'.

Again I say, this is a war, like it or not, and war calls for military action.
I said it before, and I will say it again,
Sooner or later, if enough of them are prevented from coming in here illegally, the rest will get the message to stay the hell in their own hell hole.
Then the next thing we need to do is to go after the businesses that are hireing these illegals.
Put the business owners in jail and stick them with a stiff fine, and they too will get the message.
The problem is, the politicians on all sides are a bunch of wimps and don't have the foggiest idea how to take the bull by the horns and settle this illegal immigration situation once and for all.
Getting tough is the only way to solve this problem.
As for the ones already here, close the illegal job markets and they will leave.

Bob.


Mod Edit: Post has been edited in order to remove what could be deemed as offensive text.