What's the point with religion? It's basically just a set of rules to govern your life, while you generally serve some higher being, in the hope that you will "go to a better place". I have not encountered a single religion or theory about how we came to be on this earth that is supported by honest scientific fact ( in other words, it's been proven without a doubt). So why do so many people believe in religion? Do you need the belief that your life has a purpose? Do you need a set of rules to run your life by? Does it make you sleep better at night that when you die, you will go to a "heaven" (or whatever version your religion has)?

I think religion was invented to secretly govern people, so they have a purpose in life and will follow some code, and not wander aimlessly through life.

I've realzed, that I should make my own decision regarding religion and if I even believe in one. Just because I was raised as a Christian, doesn't mean it's true. I have a hard time following something that can't be proven one way or another. I'm still thinking about whether there's a God or not.

But I want this thread to be about religion as a whole, and what it's point is. Why do so many people believe in a wide array of ideas that can't be proven?

to give people something greater than themselves to believe in.

sometimes in this hectic lifestyle we live in its nice to think there is something at the end a reassurance a peace of mind that we and our loved ones have just started our journey and believe it are not religion gives us just that

Hey Solaris

On the one hand religion can be seen to be the basis of all social constructs (10 commandments = law = morals = values = the way we live our lives and make judgments) in this way each of us is affected by it, whether we choose to admit it or not.

HA HAAA...i think you will like this quote...

Religion, time and time again, brings down empires, rotting them from within.
Iblis Ginjo,
early planning for the Jihad

Yes, it seems that religion has been manipulated by mans desire to dominate and the need for order in society...but i think there is a deeper meaning also.

Religion is also about self discovery...it is not about "higher beings". I am not a christian, but i am happy to take lessons from anywhere that makes sense to my heart. I am non-discriminitive about this. I reckon that the root of all religious texts is about showing us who we really are, but unfortunately much has been translated to communicate rules and order within society and the inner meanings have been lost over the years.

For example. In the Bible when Moses asks God his name, God replys "i am that i am". To me this is more zen like than christian, he is basically saying that he is. To be, in a sense is the sum of everything!...infinity...and in my mind infinity can not be divided so by saying he is everything, everything would have to be Him, and that includes us also. I feel this is a symbolic statement to say that we are all everything, this may sound a little extravagant, but it seems that Quantum Physics draws these sort of conclusions also...

One is led to a new notion of unbroken wholeness which denies the classical idea of analyzibility of the world into seperately and independently existing parts ... We have reveresed the usual classical notion that the independent "elementary parts" of the world are the fundemental reality, and that various systems are merely particular contingent forms and arrangements of these parts. Rather we say that inseperable quantum interconnectedness of the whole universe is the fundemental reality, and that relatively independently behaving parts are merely particular and contingent forms with the whole ~ David Bohm

Here is a 5000 year old quotation from the Upanishads that is basically making the same point but perhaps in a more poetic manner.

He on whom the sky, the earth, and the atmousphere are woven, and the wind, together with all life-breaths, Him alone know as the one Soul ~ Mundaka Upanishad

So, there are two sides to religion, there is what it has become and its reflections of the dominance of man and desire for control in society...and there is what made it so, which i feel lies within the people who experienced self realisation and decided to record these experiences within scriptures to share with others...but because others had not achieved the realisation to understand what they had written, their interpretations have since influenced what religion has become today.

NICE ONE!
nn23

Very good post nn32. So I am wondering, are people so desperate for meaning and purpose in their lives that they will follow a religion (usually one they were raised by which could be any)? Because that's what I'm getting at. People will believe unproven ideas, just so they can feel better. It seems kind of silly, but that is entirely my opinion. I have no need for purpose in life, therefore I have begun questioning religion.

When I say I don't need a purpose, it means I can live how I want to without having some external code governing me; in other words, I'm self sufficient. It just amazes me how so many people need a "purpose" in order to live. Just live! You can still have fun, have a hobby, have a job, have a family, you don't need religion for that, yet so many do.

The only justification for religion is aesthetic. A tremendous amount of great art, architecture, and music has been created in the service of a religion.
Regards,
John

Kierkegaard stressed that belief in god (for him it was the christian god) relies on a leap of faith. Belief in god cannot be a rational decision and therefore faith must transcend rationality. Kierkegaard also stated that to have faith in god one must also doubt the existence of god. To him doubt was an essential element of faith. To believe or have faith that god exists, without ever having doubted god's existence would not be a worthwhile faith. It requires no faith to believe in the existence of the pint of beer sitting in front of you - you can see it and touch it (and of course drink it). In contrast, one can have no perceptual access to god; therefore, belief in god is a different category of belief (hence the need for a leap of faith).

I think you make a good point Solaris, but it is a little...unextensive. I do not think people nesecarily need to be desperate to want to look for purpose in their life. Some people are not even looking, it just happens.

The ultimate question: Why does life exist? The answer: For life's sake.
~ thought to be of Zensunni origin

This may be a simple answer, but is life simple?...i think we become so accustomed to "living" that we miss what a profound thing it is. Everything we experience is within the mind...everything we touch or see is within our mind, it is a recording...but what is the nature of this recorder...where do we come to when we follow it back? Consciousness. Science can not prove consciousness to exist within the brain...as we experience it, it has no form...something without form can not be bound, and something without binding...well, its infinate...isnt that maaaad!!!? i think it is beautiful ...the source of our being (all thought and perception) is consciousness....i think that this is what "i am that i am" symbolises.

This is a cool quote...

The most beautiful and most profound experience is the sensation of the mystical. It is the sower of all true science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead. To know that what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their primitive forms - this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness. ~ Albert Einstein


This is a funny thought...perhaps living how you want to live, being self sufficient, having fun, hobbies, a job, a family is your "external code" which governs you.

I see little difference between "i dont need a religion" and "i need a religion". To not need is the need to not need in my view, they are both beliefs.

Some people may appear to be desperate to find purpose through their devotion to religion, and others may appear desperate to find purpose specifically without identifying or attributing to some deity...which is still desperation. But deity worship are not the only types of religion, there are many non-theist religions and understandings that work completely differently from the context to which your OP applys.


NICE ONE!
nn23

Solaris...whether you like it or not, you are somewhat governed by the laws of physics as well as the established laws of the land. So you are not totally free of outside governance. Ridiculous example? Maybe, but there clearly are forces that you have no control over.

One could ask the same question of science...

What's the point? If there is no accountability for what you do, no afterlife, you are totally self-sufficient...then why do you care about ANYTHING being proven or unproven? What's the point? Is it out of desperation that you need science to prove things?

No, I just can't believe blindly. I don't believe in the loch ness monster, bigfoot, or aliens. So why is God any different? None of those above can be proven, therefore there is no validity, and without validity, you are believing blindly. They exist only in opinion. If that opinion did not exist, would they exist? Sure I've got an open mind and won't criticize people for what they choose to believe, but it doesn't mean I have to believe it.

I think that is the whole point. Some people call it believing blindly, others prefer the word faith. If there was proof, there would be no need for faith.

Exactly. Because I don't believe in blind faith, I find religion to be redundant. What I don't understand, is why so many people blindly follow unproven ideas. People are not dumb, most of us require some proof before we believe an idea. If you were born in space, you would probably have no concept of gravity, therefore you would need some kind of proof that it indeed existed right? You wouldn't just blindly believe in it without proof. Yet many people defy this simple logic by believing in religions where none have been proven.

Question for you solaris.

How do you think the universe was made/began?

Don't know. That's part of the problem. There's nothing that can adequately prove it, yet we didn't come from nowhere...

i once asked my uncle (who's son was murdered, daughter was an alcholic and wife had had both her breast's removed due to cancer)why do you believe in god,now you will have to understand this guy is the most catholic person i know he visit rome twice a year to see the pope ,prays everday(twice)and all this stuff still happens to him.
you know what is answer was "belief"
well anyone who has read any of my posts on similar subjects will know what i feel about religion,but at the end of the day we all have a choice ,you choose to blindly believe or you require proof .i require proof ,no i demand proof which will never be forthcoming ,now i understand some people are devout in there beliefs and i do not wish to upset anyone with what i am saying.but it is a common thing for people to argue about who's religion is right ,wars happen ,people die,i mean damn even a few topics on b.c have become quite argumentetive over who's religion is right ,at the end of the day (in my opinion)
if there is a god why let people die,children abducted and killed what is all that about why put the people who really devout themselves to you suffer while you do nothing and if you are all seeing ,you watch and obviously let it pass by .

mz30....

f there isn't a god why do people die,children get abducted and killed what is all that about?

Does you believing there is no god help you cope with the above? What do you attribute the above to? Evolution?

Can't answer for anyone else but I attribute those horrors on the doorstep of the person/people doing them. And for coping with them, I console and reassure myself that for every horrible 'beast that walks on two legs' out there, there is millions more filled with goodness.

But since this thread is about religion and philosophy (can you tell I dithered about posting it here on in the original 'Misc Religious' thread? - gentle smile) ...

I read something similar to this years ago and it 'stuck' simply because it made sense to me ...

Maybe the question of the existence of God is 'beside the point' - does believing in God make a practical difference?

I suppose its purpose is for instruction. It seems to me that through out time man has believed in a higher being. There was always some worship of something Sun ,moon, God, men/woman as Gods etc.. The religions instruct the followers in the way of the Faith. Faith is the key to any religion. You believe or don't. You have faith when you sit in the chair that it will hold you. You don't send it out for testing every time you sit. You believe in it because it has held you and others before. People believe in their religion because it was there for them and others before.

I was and am still raised as a catholic, although my parents are now letting me do my thing, so i have stopped in going to mass etc.

Personally, i don't require proof, and i don't need instruction. I just plainly don't care. I view is that why on earth would you want to spend this life praising and following rules just to have a good life in the next if there is one?

I am just going to be the best person i am. I think that's enough. If there is a god, he/she would let me go to heaven anyway, as I've been a good person.

I think there shouldn't be religion at all, what with all the conflicts it causes. I believe that religion is just another political movement and that there should just be universal guidelines on how to live a good life.

Although this question was directed towards another member, whenever this point is raised in a discussion, I answer with a simple truth - "I don't know and I don't care. It is." And that's all I really need to know about it. The universe exists, I exist; I would rather spend my time living life than waste it on unanswerable questions.

Oh, just for the record, I am a non-militant Atheist. What I mean by that is that though I do not believe in any supernatural "creator" being, I also won't find fault with those that do. I will find fault with the militant Religionists that use in-your-face tactics to try and tell me what I have to believe. I don't play very nice with them.

I like your philosophy .

for jwinathome
thanks for your feedback to my post ,but no where in there did i say there is no god what i said was i need proof to devote myself to religion ,i can not blindly follow a faith that's manmade .i was raised cataholic but i did not have it rammed down my throat,i was given a choice i,e do you want to go to church ,not come on were going to church.now from what i have read from your posts in other threads concerning religion ,you are very knowledgeable does that knowledge come from your own learnings or what you were taught .i was taught in school by brothers holymen one is now in prison for molesting children in his care.the stories are endless of this sort of behaviour,believe me when i say i would love to be a follower of religion but i also need to have proof .i believe i am grownup enough to see through the facade of the catholic faith.come to think of it any faith .every faith has its flaws ,and everyone has the same one lack of proof.i mean at least evolution has some fact (but that is still called the theory of evolution).
any religion has no fact(should it not be called the theory of religion).

these are just my feelings on the matter and i do not wish to offend you or anyone else here at b.c

good point.

thanks ambellina
just my thoughts on the matter

One thing I learned many years ago is that it is a waste of time to even try to have a rational discussion with religionists. They will deny scientific fact; they will try to "hijack" the discussion onto an irrelevant track; after painting themselves in to a corner, they'll simply invoke the limitless power of "God" and become all smug.

I'll have to agree with that lol. It's very annoying when they deny any kind of real proof, but still act like their totally right.

If there is a god, then nothing can be known about him except by analogy. This is certainly proven by the various human attempts to define or describe it. Even within one particular religion, its dogma changes through time; it is a changing historical river into which one steps cautiously.One can also understand religion as a manifestation of the will-to-power of the individual over events (and himself) or of a priestly caste over others.
It seems to me that one can base one's moral choices on more certain grounds than religion, and that even the religious person often through his interpretation, often does just that (very often inauthentically and in "bad faith"in an attempt to avoid responsibility for actions).
Regards,
John

Not sure what you all qualify as a "religionist."

And of course I just have to ask....deny what proof? And what makes everything you say "totally right"?

A religionist is someone who believes in a religion.

They ignore the fact that the religion they are trying to preach to me has no real proof.

I didn't say I was totally right. I said "they" act like "they're" totally right, and it's very annoying.

But you admit that the "religion" does not require proof, people say its "faith."

Who is "preaching" to you?


So it is now "FACT" that no religion has any proof whatsoever? Everything within any religion is a complete farce?

I didn't say I was totally right. I said "they" act like "they're" totally right, and it's very annoying.

Still confused...if you say they are acting like they are right...does that mean to you that they are or are not right? And if they are not right in your mind, then are you?

I would not say that it is a "FACT" that no religion has any proof, and I certainly would not categorise everything within any religion as a complete farce; however, I have personally never seen any proof for any religious belief.

"With all of the different religions in the world, what makes you so sure that yours is the "right" one?" That question is usually of some entertainment value. A variation that can cause foaming at the mouth is to ask a hard-line "Christian" (as opposed to a Christian)* how he can be so sure that the Moslems aren't the ones with the real truth.


* I distinguish between Christians and "Christians", the "Christians" being the ones whose actions belie their claim of being Christian.

And I always find it entertaining to ask people that hold no religion at all..

""With all of the different beliefs in the world, what makes you so sure that yours is the "right" one?"

You're funny MattV.

I never said religion does not require proof. The opposite, I believe one should not believe blindly.

The people at church preach to me and everyone else there.

From a scientific standpoint, religion indeed has no proof whatsoever. Just because there's no proof doesn't mean it isn't true. It's just some people as well as myself require proof before we can believe something as major as a theory for the creation of the universe.


Ok, what I am saying is this. When you discuss something with someone (in this case religion, at say, church) it is very annoying when they tell you things about the creation of the world, and will get mad at you if question their validity. They believe they are right and refuse to listen to anything that goes against what they believe. Whether they are wrong or right was not in question in that statement, the problem is their unwillingness to hear any side but their own. Hence deriving the statement "they believe they are totally right".

i love to watch this go back and forth ,to and fro. from my point of view no one person is right we can all interpret our own religions as we see fit .to the people who believe if you dedicate your life to god and live as the bible,koran whatever your religions good book is then after living a long healthy life(hopefully )you die and there is nothing and your last thought are what have i done.
now on the other hand the people that don't believe same thing but when you do die there is a god well thats gonna suck right?
no wrong according to the bible god will forgive all sins if your willing to repent .
so i say live how you want and if god exsists repent when you die and alls forgiven.
now i am pretty sure someone is going to pull some obscure piece of scripture to rebuff me here.
but i except that i might be ridiculed for my beliefs.
but at the end of the day they are my beliefs and not ones you have been led to believe are true .

if it went to court tommorow
god versus no god
what be the outcome?
answer : no god because there is no proof and i challenge anyone to give me the proof i need.


you see this is why i try not to get involved in these topics ,get on my high horse a bit
sorry for my rantings

mz30

They believe they are right and refuse to listen to anything that goes against what they believe. Whether they are wrong or right was not in question in that statement, the problem is their unwillingness to hear any side but their own. Hence deriving the statement "they believe they are totally right".

Interestingly, I had a very similar experience to this back when I was in school...I raised opposition to blatant scientific lies that were in my schoolbook and I was threatened with suspension. The teacher didn't like it because it opposed her view.

And thats a government-funded system, unlike church.



Thank you for clarifying what you meant. I understand what you're saying now.

name='mz30' date='Jul 23 2007, 02:40 PM' post='575851']sorry for my rantings
mz30

************************************
Please don't apologize. I enjoy seeing the various beliefs and opinions. I could "pull out" Scripture that doesn't advise the "eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die" mentality...but it would prove nothing.


Just one small addition to what you said...
no wrong according to the bible god will forgive all sins if your willing to repent .

In Christianity, forgiveness is one aspect of salvation. Its a literal change of heart and renewing of the mind, and acceptance of Jesus.




Note to whomever: I did not bring up Christianity in this thread.

You'd be amazed by the things I'm amused by.

I've been around long enough to realize that most of what may seem, on the surface, to be serious is, upon closer examination, fairly ridiculous. And the number of people that waste time and energy on the ridiculous is funnier yet.

Oh, some people might label me a cynic. I prefer the word realist.

Just one small addition to what you said...
no wrong according to the bible god will forgive all sins if your willing to repent .

In Christianity, forgiveness is one aspect of salvation. Its a literal change of heart and renewing of the mind, and acceptance of Jesus.




Note to whomever: I did not bring up Christianity in this thread.
[/quote]It would probably be worth a thread of its' own, but if a discussion of Christianity did arise, I am somewhat familiar with the subject - my mother is a good Southern Baptist, and I was forced to endure many hours of Sunday School and "Vacation Bible School" (only the Baptists could come up with something that oxymoronic) as I was growing up. There are many holes and outright contradictions in the bible, for instance. The first two chapters of Genesis give two contradictory accounts of "creation", for instance. Yet that seems to be OK. Go figure.

It would probably be worth a thread of its' own, but if a discussion of Christianity did arise, I am somewhat familiar with the subject - my mother is a good Southern Baptist, and I was forced to endure many hours of Sunday School and "Vacation Bible School" (only the Baptists could come up with something that oxymoronic) as I was growing up. There are many holes and outright contradictions in the bible, for instance. The first two chapters of Genesis give two contradictory accounts of "creation", for instance. Yet that seems to be OK. Go figure.



Well, if you wish to discuss it, by all means either open up a new thread or find an old one. I will gladly discuss it with you.

I can tell you off the top however, my views are very much different than that of "southern baptist"....and I attended "vacation Bible school" many times as well. My sister, brother, and myself rather enjoyed it and learned a lot of quality things. Guess it must be different for different people. Surely you wouldn't base your entire perspective off of only your experience. I am sure you are much more intelligent than that.

Im just picking at you.

In the SpeakEasy 'Mis Religious Discussion' thead, I kept thinking of my honest wish - that poof!, all religions simply didn't exist so we could stand a chance of having peace in our beautiful world finally.

For myself it doesn't matter in the here and now how religions started - whether they were simply formed as 'self-serving' beliefs (to explain the thunder, lightening and lousy crops, etc) or for another reason. It simply seems that religions aren't - and never have been and never will be - content to have their own and let others be. Rather we have a tendency to be like children - mine is the best and yours is no good. And we all know that many a sand-box fight as erupted over something similar to this.

If wishes could come true, I'd wish away all religions and the intolerance and hate and deaths that ensue because of them.

"The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork" (Psalms 19:1)



Not all people who are religious kill people. I know in Christianity that murder is well its one of the Ten Commandments to not murder. People who do this are doing wrong. They are going against Christianities teaching in Gods word the Bible.

Well you keep saying Solaris32 that people believe in their religion based on blind faith. I will have to disagree with you on that. Originally I did have blind faith when I became a Christian (defined as a true follower of Christ Jesus God's only son). Then through my dad's and my research I saw that science only proves God's existance more and more. I do not wish to go into detail for the fact that this isn't just about Christianity.

Personally though I believe most people believe in a religion to escape the fears of death.

-Steve

That's probably why a lot of people jump on the religious bandwagon. That and they were raised to believe a certain religion.

The problem with proof like that CGM, is that it is once again a matter of "faith" that those words were divinely written from God himself. It is an opinion that those words are holy, and a person's opinion is not proof.

Science has no even reasonable answer to how we got here and how the universe was made.

A universe this advanced does NOT get here by itself. Science can beat around the bush all it wants but they cant explain what made the first atoms that helped make this universe by their idea(big bang or whatever they go by now days)

Why not?

I think he means according to science.



In other words...no scientist has ever sat around watching "nothing" turn into "something"

I was thinking about starting a new topic where I give certain evidence toward Christianity and then talking about that for a couple weeks and then change to another topic and supply evidence for that, would any one be willing to particeapate in that? anyways, I will have to disagree with you again Solaris32. Not all christians refuse to not listen to the other side I know plenty of chrirtians who love to debate using scientific evidence only. I tend to find it is usualy evolutionists that refuse to ...

I'm all for discussing "evidence toward Christianity."

listen to my side of the argument when I supply scientifically accepted facts. I know you are not trying to single out christians but I feel that you are pleare correct me if that is not so. -Steve