Its not the same. I have seen people cured from uncurable diseases after prayer. Cancer and hepatitis that would kill them just gone.

Precisely . I couldn't of said it better myself.

Yes, and how many people have NOT been cured through prayer? You pray for a hundred people with cancer, and in one of the patients it suddenly goes away, it's considered an act of God? These "miracles" happen regardless if you pray or not. And no, I am not bashing Christians or any other religion. I am just providing thoughtful feedback from the other point of view.

I didn't really understand the reference to healing with regards to predictions coming true myself...I don't see how the two are related.

I was stating just two things in one paragraph sorry for the confusion.

No, cancer does not just up and disappear by itself nor does aids or limbs grow back that were never there. I am talking no chemo, just gone it does not happen without prayer. Cancer being there one day and the next completely gone is a miracle.



Wrong.....You just dont get it. Its not about fear.

name='cowsgonemadd3' date='Aug 8 2007, 02:42 PM' post='589095']
I was stating just two things in one paragraph sorry for the confusion.

No problem, sorry I read it wrong.

CGM, you said you go to a charismatic church correct? Have you seen the healing personally? Just curious. (I really have no agenda behind the question.)

cgm3 while i have no doubt of what you believe(from reading your posts i cn see you are very rigid on the matter)how do you know these people had anything wrong with them to begin with,did you see medical charts or something of the like?
i am not trying to insult your intelligence in any way and i do believe miracles can happen(seen one myself by the way).
but back to me needing facts,if your at your church and the priest or whoever says this person has such and such wrong with them,and the healer brings them up and "lays on hands"and everything is hunky dory ,that would take a lot to convince me,its not something i could take on face value,if you know what i mean.i would have to see medical reports before and after and then i would accept it as a miracle.

like i said before i am not singling you out for your beliefs(quite admire you for them if am honest)

but cancer in some case's is curable,and hepatitis is definetly curable.
something happen naturally and as you said somethings are a miracle(but what things?)

One of my friends/teacher had hepatitis and after prayer (she lived with it for years) it was gone.

No this person I knew. She was by no means lying and let me tell you she looked better after the hepatitis was gone like her skin cleared up got more tone to it and was less pale. She also got more energy.

You say that I only believe in God because I don't want to die. You're right, I don't want to spend eternity DIEING in Hell.

I don't necesarily agree or disagree with healings, because some of them may be real, and some may not, but most are fake so I just don't believe any of them.

Then some of the people on this board think that because awful things happen to good people that God does not exist. Well I tell you that you just expect something out of God that he never promised. My God is a just god, not a nice god. Jesus Christ promises eternal life to all those who believe in him. If this is not good enough for you, then I just don't know what to say.

Because personally, if I had an uncurable disease that was very painful, all the way until my last breath in this body, I would not care, and I certainly would not be spiteful toward my lord, for giving me a lifetime of pain in return for an eternity in heaven would be all right with me.

Well said ryan w quick

-Steve

I've seen people cured of "incurable" diseases through modern medicine. Nothing supernatural about that. A good friend of mine was cured of lymphatic cancer with a regimen of chemotherapy. If all he'd had recourse to was a bunch of people praying at 'im - I could still visit his grave, I suppose.

You don't see it because they're not. A favorite tactic of religionists (and Democrats) - attempting to derail or sidetrack the conversation. Especially when confronted with something they have no stock answer for.

Then why the obsession with denying mortality? Nearly all religions have the same central theme - that you will continue to exist in some way even after you are dead. If this inability or refusal to accept mortality doesn't originate from fear, then what is it's cause?

Not quite. Religions stem from the fear of mortality - the refusal to accept that death is the end. Most people, even those that are not inherently religious, believe that they will continue to exist in some way after their death. The simply can't accept the fact that death is the end of existence. Religions plays upon this fear by promising eternal rewards to those that toe the line, and eternal punishment to those that don't. Religions are great tools for controlling the thoughts and behavior of large numbers of people.

This is one thing that confuses me about communism. Instead of trying to subsume religion, why don't they use it as the handy toll for controlling the masses that it is? Puzzling.

Its what God says he promises a place in heaven for those who believe in Jesus and a place in hell for those who do not.
Obsession, I dont understand yes we may die or Jesus may come back and take us in the rapture.



You act like you want death to be the end. Why would you want it to be the end?

mattv, I dont think you should make claims that you know that death on earth is the end of existence, because you just cannot possibly know for sure.

you would (probably) be sorry if death is not the end

I find it interesting that a person will state that religion (particularly Christianity) is founded upon fear of death. Yet if that person had a gun held to their head by say....an islamic terrorist (for lack of a better example)...they would most certainly tremble with fear, now facing their mortality. Its rather comical, they can sit back in their American home and go about their daily life never thinking twice about facing their mortality. But when that moment comes, well....there is fear....undeniably.

You see Matthew, you admittedly are confused about the premise of communism...perhaps its possible that you are confused about Christianity. Its not based on fear. Its based on loving God. I can only speak for myself here: I am not afraid of death...I am not afraid of life after death. Trust me, there is one. I could ask the same question of you....Why are you so obsessed with denying mortality?

Jesus instructed us how to conduct ourselves here on earth. Sure there are "rewards in Heaven", but for me personally...its not what I am after.

A favorite tactic of religionists (and Democrats) Again, I think you have a skewed perception of what a "religionist" is. Sort of a silly word actually. Oh, and not all democrats are that way. (I'm not one, but to include them all in that way shows a lot about your understanding, or lack thereof.)

Religions are great tools for controlling the thoughts and behavior of large numbers of people.
Funny you brought that up, considering the most heinous of dictators responsible for countless deaths did so on behalf of their naturalist/materialist ideals. Are you saying that naturalism is a religion?

My wants have nothing to do with the fact that it is.

I don't know what tree you plucked that one from. I know that death is part of the natural order of things, and that it is the endof life. So you tell me where the denial is in that.Yes, and if people were to follow that simple philosophy, everyone would be a lot better off. And you don't have to believe in the supernatural to do so...

It's the only thing I could come up with as an alternative to listing every single religion in the world (Christians, Moslems, Jews, etc., etc.) every time I want to refer to followers of religion in general². If you can think of a better term, let me know.For the most part, they are



1 It seems that a lot of people take me far more seriously than I do. Or perhaps my sense of humor is a little esoteric. I see humor in just about everything, and that is reflected in my writing. I take pains to ensure that my wording conveys the meaning I want it too (For instance, even a short post such as this may take me fifteen minutes to compose). I use sarcasm as a rapier - I take stabs at a lot of things, though not always in jest.

One of the greatest pieces of advice I've ever been given is, "Don't take yourself too seriously." And I don't. Other people do sometimes, though, and that leads to chaos and confusion. At which point my work is done.


2 I also usegeneralities frequently. Sure, not all Democrats are sneaky, conniving weasels, but Democrats in general are.

My wants have nothing to do with the fact that it is. - MattVism™

I saw in another thread Matt that you require proof for everything you believe....well now is your chance to prove to the board that death is the end using empirical evidence and no speculation or hypothetical.....annnnnd go.

2 I also generalities frequently. Sure, not all Democrats are sneaky, conniving weasels, but Democrats in general are. (IMG:http://www.bleepingcomputer.com/forums/style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)


Admittedly, its hard to disagree with this.

Simple. Kill something. put it in a cage. Check twice a day to see if it's still dead. It will be. Right up until the day you die, and beyond.

Every single thing that I've ever killed has remained dead. How many things have you killed and then seen come back to life?

Democrats will sneak in and rob you when you're not home. Republicans will rob you right on the street, face to face. Democrats are thieves, Republicans are muggers.

Every single thing that I've ever killed has remained dead.

uh...i don't dare to ask.

Kill something. put it in a cage. Check twice a day to see if it's still dead. It will be. Right up until the day you die, and beyond.

Need your personal experience on this one Matt. Humans are different than animals. Humans have a spirit and soul. I'm sure you won't acknowledge that, but thats alright.

I assure you that you will inevitably have the personal experience at some point (hopefully a long time from now). You will either know there is an afterlife, or completely cease to exist. It is the most interesting experiment i'm sure!

How do you know if animals have a spirit and/or soul? How do you know they don't have them?

Bible says so? Just asking. If Bible says so, I won't ask again, just interested how you said out as a fact. (and I still don't see how one can blindly believe in Bible -- not saying it's wrong either -- to believe or not, though)

Matt and I were pretty much joking around with each other....but since you asked....

I believe God made man in His own image...(Which the Bible does say)...and God has a spirit and soul. God did not make animals in His image. There are many references to the spirits and souls of men in the Bible, but none regarding animals. Of course its my opinion, and not verifiable by known science. The only way to truly verify it, unfortunately, would be to die. (I am not advocating that.)

As for believing blindly in the Bible. I don't. Quite the contrary, I believe with very clear-sight.

Just curious, which one is "the" bible?

Take your pick. Which book(s) you accept as divine (if any) is a choice that is solely up to you.

I think you have it correct!
Religion was created so that when we, as humans, moved from hunter/gatherers, and went to a more 'organized' society, with fewer hunters and gatherers, the ones who were smart enough to scare people into believing something, would get those frightened masses to hunt and gather for them.
Religion is ALL about control. That's the way that the mythology reads, as does the history.

AFAIC, god is nothing more than dog spelled backwards!

WOW! There is NO definitive answer to everything. Religion is a word with many different meanings and implications. There are Religious people-who I personally have no desire to know. And there are spiritual people who seem to have a better life as a whole because of how their faith and beliefs have affected their lives and the lives around them. I profess and confess to my belief in God and Jesus Christ as MY Savior. Your question demands some relatively deep thinking on my part as in how to post my theory. I DO believe that there has been Scientific proof of God, Noah and the Ark, Christ's Cruxifiction (sp?), the Tomb, and more. I believe that the proof is there and backs up what the biblical writings have said for hundreds and hundreds of years. THUS saying, WHY does Religion matter? I'm not so sure that Religion as a whole really does. I do however believe that a personal, spiritual relationship with whom I believe is The Creator of all things-GOD, is important and does matter. WHY? People, as a whole, really want and need to have something to believe in....outside themselves and the day to day life existance. Those who do not seem to have no real dedicated purpose as to the direction in their lives. I'm NOT saying ALL people.....there are always exceptions in everything. But MOST people. As stated in another post, IF I believe and live my life as such that there is an Almighty God....and there TRULY IS.......then my beliefs have served me well. If however, (and I don't really subscribe to this idea too much), I die and that is the end PERIOD.....what did I LOSE in believing and living a life trying to be a good person exampling Jesus and his teachings?? I can't think of anything that I would have lost - those living without Jesus don't seem to be any better off in any way than I am......if I had to make a judgement call on it, I would actually say that the majority of the people that I know who do NOT believe in God are in fact, much worse off in their lives. So does Religion have a point? NOT Religion-Faith, Beliefs, Moral codes and Values.........YES, those do. Thankx guy....you made me think!

Religion was invented to make peoples' lives easier a long time ago. It's hard to imagine that with the medical technology healing us and climate controlled shelters and everything else people take for granted now. But back then when you died you died from hunger, thirst, by the fist, tooth and claw, and by the sword. With the prospect of death always a reality, how you treat other people becomes less important than your own survival; anarchy ensues.

But, if you start a religion, you can put a magic guy who lives above you and sees and knows all in charge. He decides who lives and who dies based on what the person does. That way you are not leaving your fate up to any bum with a sword or hungry lion, it's up to the plan of a supreme deity who protects followers.

Religion made peoples' lives easier by controlling their fear from the randomness of their chaotic lives, instead turning it into fear of some omnipresent wrath from above. Be good to each other, follow the rules, and you get to live. It's a lot better way to live than do whatever you can to live through the night no matter what and hope you get to eat and don't get killed. That fear of a vengeful immortal was the only thing that kept man from killing and raping to get what he wanted instead of joining together and sharing what little people did have back then and loving one another.

"...What does the Lord, your God ask of you---only to fear Him..." (Deuteronomy 10:12.)

Hello solaris32,

You say the evidence is overwhelming regarding evolution vs. the bible's version; however, I will tell you that I have never found a single shred of scientific evidence that has ever proven the bible to be inaccurate regarding the beginning of mankind and I would love it if you could point me to something that has been accepted "universally" as conclusive evidence. Now, that does not mean that the bible is accurate, and unfortunately, there will be no conclusive proof of that either until we are in a real position to know (but unable to tell it to any earthly being). So, what you have done (in your own mind) is to make that assumption based on all the scientific evidence available, and since God cannot dispute that in being, the overwhelming majority tends to only believe what they can see and here.

With that said, I would like to provide you with a link to an article that was written by a person who is both a Christian and a Chemical Engineer: http://www.ou.edu/faculty/organizations/ouchrfas/evolhar.htm

However, I will admit that it is very difficult to "keep the faith" with this never-ending barrage of evolutionary information but there is one thing that keeps me going personally and that is the fact that "if I don't believe, I just vanish into nothingness"; however, if I heed God's promise that everlasting life is a gift that can only be obtained through "faith and faith alone", then it's not too hard for me to keep believing because "having faith in something is always better that believing in nothing."

Believe me, I am not trying to change your mind in anyway but I must assure you that you are not going to change my mind either.

ok, noobies, heres how religion works. You get born to some place in the world, then the ignorant fools pass on their legends of choice, and then you spend your entire life living a lie that keeps you from doing wonderful things like having sex and doing drugs, and then you die and turn to dust.

haha, lol, you believe in god out of pure fear. what a weakling.

Some do believe as you seem, and then again, their are others whom gain their inner strength in that way.

I really dont understand anything that you say. You never define to whom you are speaking, or to what post you are replying and it really bugs me.

It is impossible to help you understand; that is a personal problem. I could, given time, to try and teach you, but as far as understanding goes, that is up to your own personal abilty.

As to the bugs... have you tried a bath?

I understand a form of english that at least uses a few identifiers so i know who and what you're talking about.

I sure wish I had you in one of my lectures. I found it fascinating how many graduate students have a very poor grasp of the English language.

lol well i don't always speak so well

I was born cathlolic. I was christened and had a conformation (at a young age hence it being against my own free will) and I asked my nan why I was. She told me "You Tarrah can have whatever faith you want to have but while your a part of this family you will always be a catholic in our eyes.

What gets to me is that I'm considered catholic by my family, I'm not allowed to eat meat on good friday (I missed my friday night T-bone steak tonight ) but my family aren't the least bit religious and they make me do this stupid stuff.

Religion may have given hope to many, many people but I do not want any part in it. Even if I was brought up to be a "cathoic"

this is how VERY many catholics are. they don't really follow catholicism, they just say their catholics, i doubt their not using condoms just cause of their religion

I agree

Hello, this thread interested me. I havnt read many other posts and so am just replying to the original.

For me, religion is about finding an answer to the question: "who am i?"

This answer may seem a little silly to some at first. Some people may reply with their name, and perhaps a brief, explaining what their interests are. What activities they take part in that they feel define them as a person. But when you remove your personal identity, your outward possessions, your clothing style, your language, your thoughts desires and feelings. What is left is who you truely are. But the understanding of this intellectually must not be mistaken for the knowledge through apprehension of it.

You mention that you have not encountered a single religion or theory about how we came to be on this earth that is supported by honest scientific fact. Despite this being a statement about the validity of these religious beliefs and theories, this point could also be seen to say a little about the limitations of science.

However, what mystics of ALL religions across the world show is that in order to find honest scientific evidence of the central theme of all religions (The Godhead*). One must practice. One must work, constantly, to strengthen their beliefs and faiths. They must follow earnestly the structures of their faith in order to experience evidence of the Godhead. It is not something that can be proven objectively. But this does not devalue the personal evidence of God's existence that people have...in particular the mystics. I can name many mystics across the world who i believe to have been in a state of Self Realisation and/or enlightenment and/or experiencing God. St John of the Cross, Meister Eckheart, Sri Ramana Maharshi, Sri Ramakrishna, Shankara, Gautama Buddha, Mansur al-Hallaj, George Fox and many many more. These are people who have experienced the Godhead directly. This can be seen by their written works and writings about them. For us that may be secondary evidence, which would not count for much in the realms of "science" but if the things that are written of them are true, then one can only imagine what their primary experiences were...but these primary experiences are where the evidence is at, and the only way to have them is through devoted, contemplative and active practice.

Its a tough one, some people may want the to witness direct evidence to give them justification for their practice, but the only way they can get direct evidence is BY actually practicing spirituality.

I too believe that throughout the ages religion has been greatly manipulated by discontented forces to gain power. But when a person has true faith, a faith without ignorance, this does not concern them as much as doing what they can to devote, contemplate and act according to what they believe and also being able to discern the political egotistic spin from that of God's will which i believe to be infinite love and kindness to all.


*...although in Mahayana Buddhism it will be referred to as the Primordial Buddha Womb and/or the Universal Mind...but the point is...God is just a word, it can not define what it describes an understanding of because if God is infinite then defining Him contradicts this by the finite subject to object distinctions used by the language we describe Him with...which Buddhists try to avoid by referring to spiritual aspects of our being using different words

^I just couldnt read all that

I feel what Mrs. Erceg is saying. I think the op is saying if you can't see it or have physical proof of religion, it's most likely bs.

I had a chem 201 professor explain to me about the speed and path of sub atomic orbitals. The are going very fast, almost hitting into one another at every revolution but still things are in perfect balance. Also, the sun and the stars and human beings and the computer I'm using, everything when broken down can be seen as quarks, just arranged in different ways. What I'm saying is life is too perfect to be random. Call it whatever you want.

My religion is:
Make love, not war.

[rant]What really grinds my gears about religion is how everything is "gods work" when its the evolution of man. Sure god created some of the things we use to make what we have today but it wasn't god who invented the mobile phone, it wasn't god who invtented computers, it wasn't god who invented the internet and it most definatly wasn't god who came up with every single luxury we have today.

So when you religious people "thank god for this lovely meal" think of the fact that he did NOT invent mashed ptoato, ketchup (or as us Aussies like to call it Tomato sauce) he didn't invent the gravy and he sure didn't invent what your having to drink(unless its water and thats the work of rain, not god.).[/rant]

lol...wow!

What you have written makes it seem as though "God" is a separate being in competition with us. Is that the case? Who is it that is competing? Who is it that attributes credit (whether it be to God, inventors or both)?